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We should be extremely slow to "universally condemn" things, though. Free speech requires that universal condemnation is very difficult to reach.

The reality of a free society is that we will be confronted with ideas that differ from our own. It will often be uncomfortable. To be free is a demanding thing for a sovereign citizen.

The exact thing to not do is to claim that every situation is potentially worthy of universal condemnation and that we must figure out how every situation could potentially be worthy of universal condemnation. That's the opposite of living in a free society.


What we mean is when groups of loud activists pile onto a wrongthinker en masse and demand that the person's life and livelihood be destroyed, or else engage in targeted harassment campaigns, all for the crime of having a different viewpoint, which of course makes them the worst possible thing.


I think it all stems from this idea that we can't be made uncomfortable ever, or we are a victim. The whole point of colleges and universities was to be confronted with some very uncomfortable ideas and to argue your position on them. This is how free societies work.

But as you said, currently all of our mundane day-to-day dopamine incentives in the West are aimed at the precise inversion of that. Not a good thing.


Yep. There is no freedom of speech unless the most batshit insane ideas can see the light, be understood truthfully, and criticized freely.

And, I'd add: we need to respect the rights of the crazies to speak their mind. Yes, respect. Otherwise, you have people stuck in their crazy bubble, following only social media accounts that agree with them, and not listening to any criticisms of their points of view because everyone treats them like a horrible pariah and has never bothered to explain why their ideas are wrong, and they've never had a chance to truly argue their position (which is how you suss out what you actually believe).

And what do we get when we don't let people with bad ideas speak their minds freely, argue their position, and listen to arguments from others?

We get January 6th.


That is truly unfortunate to read.

Those people are not serious about free speech; they are deeply hostile to it. If they were serious about free speech, they would welcome the criticism.

In my experience, it's not the criticism that free speech advocates complain about (plenty of weak phonies do, to be fair, because they are not secure in their principles or viewpoints). In my experience, free speech advocates complain mostly about the moves of private organizations against individuals' right to free speech. The bans from the social media "public square," (suddenly more important during Covid...) or when someone gets cut off of PayPal for dubious political reasons, these things do matter. They may not be strictly "unconstitutional," or even really illegal, but they are dangerous, and they are against the ideals of a free society.


In my experience, the "anti-free speech" things they complain about are generally the actions taken by powerful private institutions (PayPal cutting people off, complete bans from the Social Media town square) that prevent individuals from having the right to exercise freedom of speech in practice.


Free speech exists to prevent "nasty behavior". The whole point is that you speak your mind instead of getting violent. The whole idea is to invite criticism for "nasty behavior," and to allow everyone to see why that behavior is nasty, what's wrong with it, and why.


The point of the bit about Western Europe was to point out that hate crime laws in practice achieve the exact opposite of their intended goal: They make societies more bigoted. The US, which doesn't legislate against hate speech, has less hate crime than countries that do.

The point is to figure out what works, not "keep trying what we expected to work, but it didn't, but we've already sunken the cost of believing it, so we might as well keep trying."


I understand what the author is claiming. What I am saying is that the argument does not show that at all: if, for the same action, you will be charged in country A (because of stricter hate crime laws) but not in country B, then, obviously, there will be more charges brought against people for violating this in country A than in country B (because it's not a crime in country B!).

It's like comparing two countries about their drug laws. Clearly, when certain drugs are illegal in country A but not in country B, people will only be charged because of drug use in country A. But this does not mean that there is less drug use in country B - for all we know, everyone in country B could be using that drug 24/7 - it's just not a violation of the law, and thus does not lead to more charges.


No, it's precisely the other way around. The XKCD comic attempts to reframe one of the most important philosophical foundations of democracy as somehow legally unsound, or otherwise completely dismissable when it comes to ideas that are in the minority. When one is in the majority, implies Randall, it is their right to take part in the suppression of minority ideas. That sort of questioning of democratic fundamentals runs directly contrary to the ideals of a free society.

The whole point of free speech is to allow for fringe, crazy, bad ideas, so that we can put them in the light and suss them out. Without that, there is darkness, and we all know what happens to democracy in darkness.


Emacs was released in 1985. That's 36 years ago. Half of that is 18. What am I missing?


> Initial release 1976; 45 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs


I think GNU Emacs was released in 1985, but Emacs existed before that. Similar to vim and vi relationship.

In fact, Emacs was first implemented as a plugin (a set of macros in the language of the time) for a now forgotten editor called Teco, which was one of the first, if not the first, programmable editor ever.


That's the "macs" in Emacs: Editing MACroS.


I was using Emacs in 1982, and it had been around for several years before that.


I love it when old-timers weigh in on HN comments.

What do you use these days?


Started with Gosmacs. Working in the CMU graduate terminal room with the man himself. I was just a freshman undergraduate, but a graduating student gifted a coveted X1 key to me. Mostly coveted due to the coke machine.

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~coke/history_long.txt


What a wonderfully entertaining read that was :)

Sounds like the culture in the CMU CS department was pretty great.

Thank you for sharing this historical gem with us.


not OP, but Emacs ofc [1]

[1] why on earth would they go through the traumatic change of reprogramming their muscle memory after so many years? it would be like a wizard that voluntarily gives their power away. like a father sacrificing his own child.


Also, conversely whom Emacs is attracting these days. One interesting data point i came across is this philosophy dude protesilaos.com/ . Amazing youtube videos on Emacs and he has unique view from the point of philosopher for Emacs.


Emacs of course ;)

Gosh, "old timer" :(


Apologies for my poor choice of wording!

Here in South Africa we typically use "old-timer" to refer to someone who is very experienced.

My comment was expressed with the utmost respect I assure you :)


I didn't take it as a derogatory label. My emoji was just my own self reflection on the years gone by.


edlin

Why fix what ain't broke? /s


GNU Emacs was released in 1985. Other variants of Emacs date back to the 70s.


Apparently, the downvote restriction to wise users doesn't prevent some of them from being trigger happy. Maybe the release date stated above is wrong but I'm shocked to see this kind of comment downvoted.


are we off by one ?


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