I know this is a technical site, but for all of these I always get a little sad with how few fictional books are listed on these types of posts. Going over it, seems like there's just one, "The Nix" (may be more where I just missed them).
I like seeing fictional books since I can relate to the people writing them. If I enjoyed some of the fictional books that people talk about, then I'll go along with their non-fiction recommendations. Also, reading fiction shouldn't be treated like time wasted! I see that comment a lot by people who only read the non-fiction books, but I highly disagree with that thought. For another comment I guess.
One way to do that is to have different sections, one for fiction and one non-fiction. I'd love to see that here.
On that note, I've actually experienced that here, with some of the book recommendation threads, finding comments with books I also like and then reading the others. Always fun to talk to people who read the same as you.
Thanks – I'm the one that picked The Nix for the list (I work for YC on their admissions team).
One reason I picked it is that is indeed a great book that I have been recommending plenty to friends.
Another is that I do think it's incredibly important to be able to enjoy and indulge and make time for fiction, especially when you work in tech. It's too easy to "read for facts / information / theory" and forget the joy that good writing can bring.
It took me some reflection to realize I heavily bias towards non-fiction unless I make an effort. But when I do get the chance to read a great novel, it tends to affect me more than reading non-fiction.
The world needs more literature, poetry, and art, so I also like supporting authors who ship that product too :)
(FWIW, the book probably isn't for everyone, but I think reading great literature is – give it a shot if you haven't in a while!)
I'm interested in your argument to why fiction is not time "wasted"! Would you mind discussing? I have thought about this a lot and personally only read non-fiction, but am always interested in other viewpoints.
I am not the original thread author, but I would postulate that it first depends on what each individual considers time wasted vs time well spent.
Many consider a relaxing, entertaining read to be worthwhile after a hard week of work in its own right.
For those who need a more "tangible" return on reading, though, many fiction books, intentionally or not, introduce ideas, philosophies, thoughts and perspective.
Some explore political systems, others philosophies, others social/economic constructs, yet others interpersonal relationships, etc. From that perspective, one can learn from many fiction books, exercise one's mental muscles, gain new perspectives, and even take actionable insight.
I'm not saying Danielle Steel or Sydney Sheldon are necessarily likely candidates for bringing lifestyle change; but I have personally found many fiction (particularly SF in my case) books to have played a large part in influencing my perspective on the world and people within it, impact my likes and priorities, and so on.
I don't agree with ideas in Starship Troopers but found them challenging my own worldview. Arthur Clarke put Sri Lanka / Ceylon on my bucket list, made me interested in astronomy AND computer science. Neuromancer instigated my trip to Japan and visit to Tokyo, where I very much experienced the night-time vista through Case's eyes. A lot of Tom Clancy (I know... I know;) renewed my interest in flying and geopolitics, and I've happily used the word "nekulturny" in my daily usage since. Karl May's doubly-fictional accounts of American West and Arabian Peninsula added them to my own imagination.
Tau Zero, Childhood's end, and Children of men made me realize how much I empathized with success and continuation of species more than Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" or Dawkins' "Selfish Gene" ever did. And so on...
Do you consider time experiencing any art to be wasted?
I find it to: enhance empathy; expose me to new ideas and perspectives (both of background and state of mind); improve my writing; allow me to experience the beautiful and the sublime, which I'd count as among the least-wasteful uses of time; act as a kind of therapy by letting me see that my struggles both great and mundane are, without exception, not only my own; generally aid self reflection, understanding, and improvement.
Granted few or none of these things may result if we're talking about trash fiction, which isn't better than any other time-waster one may choose (TV, say—though both are fine if one's goal is simply entertainment). The above is what The Good Stuff does, by definition—achieving most or all of those things is overwhelmingly why those works are considered great.
[EDIT] I'd add that even mediocre fiction can be a great source of inspiration and ideas, while also being entertaining.
> Granted few or none of these things may result if we're talking about trash fiction, which isn't better than any other time-waster one may choose (TV, say—though both are fine if one's goal is simply entertainment).
I think there's an argument for reading as entertainment, regardless of quality, as a form of non-productive entertainment that is less harmful than other forms of entertainment. I've taken to switching off my devices at night and just reading books (fiction and non-fiction) before bed.
I would say my attention span has benefited greatly from this, as has my sleep (from not staring into blue lights late into the night).
Of course reading fiction isn't the only activity that this could apply to. Just the one we happen to be talking about.
> I think there's an argument for reading as entertainment, regardless of quality, as a form of non-productive entertainment that is less harmful than other forms of entertainment. I've taken to switching off my devices at night and just reading books (fiction and non-fiction) before bed.
That's a good point. I was over-broad in my post—the form by which one experiences otherwise low-nutrient entertainment can have its own benefits. Reading even so-so fiction's not the same as watching so-so TV or compulsively refreshing online news aggregators, for example.
Just curious, how long is your average nightly reading period? I'm thinking of taking up a similar habit but not sure how long to allot. Also I'm a little worried about going over-time, especially when reading fiction!
Probably about a half hour minimum, sometimes going for hours, depends on when I turn the computer off. I have a pretty flexible waking time as I work remotely but I've never totally lost track of time doing it.
Fiction is a petri dish for all of those ideas you're consuming in non-fiction books.
Have you ever had an idea that you thought could change the world? Write a short story about it. When you are really forced to create different viewpoints in your head, put those viewpoints into characters, and then have those characters come into conflict with one another, you're subjecting your idea to scrutiny that costs nothing more than a few bytes in word processor and a few hours of time.
In that way, I think a lot of non-fiction is time wasted. I think more non-fiction writers should be fiction writers.
Reading is the 10 hour version of the above multi-year exercise - as all books are. Instead of deriving Newton's laws, you read what Newton spent a lifetime to come up with. Instead of deriving the implications of a situation where sentient alien races can communicate between stars, read about the solution arrived at when they spent years thinking about. Sure, it's not as technically difficult (nor probably rewarding) as synthesizing the ideas themselves, but still valuable to ingest - especially given the investment/reward ratio.
As a scientist, authors like William Gibson, Borges, Bradbury, Ramez Naam, Asimov, Clarke, Richard Morgan, etc. have provided me with rapid access to very real and useful perspectives inaccessible in non-fiction form. Such stories are long-form versions of Einstein's 'gedanken' [1] - thought experiments such as those he relied on to conceive of relativity.
There's a caveat though: through just reading, it's easy to fall into the illusion that you learned anything. Maybe for some this is enough, but I'd wager that for vast majority of people (myself included), to internalize some idea even on the most basic level, you have to do something along the lines of:
- rehearse it after a time, or
- try to derive it by yourself (applies to e.g. math and physics), or
- explain in your own words (whether by teaching someone, or just writing a blog post), or
- code a working demo of it
Basically, you have to apply the idea somehow to actually learn it.
I agree, but I don't think there's a difference whether the initial idea is consumed as fiction or non-fiction.
And it's certainly true that writers of hard-to-grasp ideas often use both - fictional examples in non-fiction books, historical examples and exposition in fiction books.
It exposes me to viewpoints, warnings, or subjects I wouldn't have learned otherwise.
For example, I've never given time to reading about gene editing, but after reading Change Agent I've been reading about gene editing and Crispr. I also have some minor understanding of the dangers and benefits of where that could take civilization.
I hadn't thought about what would happen in doomsday scenarios, like a large virus outbreak or an EMP blast, but Holding Their Own and One Second After exposed me to that.
Reading Seveneves exposed me to space travel and Lagrange points, I had no idea about these otherwise.
Authors like John Fante are great story tellers and he's such a joy to read instead of watching a tv series.
Change Agent is great. I read it after finishing The Windup Girl, which is a book someone on HN recommended to me.
I do second The Windup Girl - in particular, I liked the exploration of technologies in a society so energy constrained, that the Joule becomes pretty much the most important resource.
If anyone has any biotech fiction recommendations, I'd love to hear them.
I have no idea if this is valid, but it is often said that people who read a lot more fiction tend to have more of a certain type of empathy.
Not all types of empathy. I think the idea is that when they see someone behave in a negative manner, they are more likely to conjure up a scenario in their mind where that behavior makes sense.
I remember one communications workshop I took where one of the lessons was: "When someone acts poorly or irrationally, try to ask yourself: Why would a reasonable person ever behave this way?" If you can come up with a scenario, then you don't automatically attribute negative qualities to the other (irrational, jerk, etc).
The claim is people who read a lot of fiction are much better at this. Anecdotally, I often find I'm better at this than most around me - even people who I view as much more intelligent. Often gets me in trouble, as well (e.g. my refusal to blanket condemn Wall Street professionals after the 2008 crisis (the key word being "blanket")).
Until recently, I would get quite frustrated with those who were quick to judge in situations where I could come up with (reasonable) scenarios vindicating the person, and could clearly see the person judging had not ruled those out. But in the last year or so, people have sent me signals that this is hard for the average person to do and I'm much better than most.
And the advice I keep hearing on how you can develop that skill is "Read more fiction".
Anyway, my 2 cents. Would love to see if this is backed by anything rigorous.
I guess I have two thoughts. The first concerns what is "wasted" time? If fiction is enjoyable, why is that waste of time? You might say you should use your time to gain new skills or hone your old. But to what end? If all your time is spent on non-fiction, when are you truly enjoying yourself? (Unless of course you truly enjoy non-fiction more than fiction). Life is short and nobody will remember you in 10000 years from now, why not enjoy the time you have?
The other is the hidden benefits of fiction. You'll be exposed to different world views than your own, different social constructs and different time periods which can shape how you see events. It's possible to live your life, in very different ways, in fast forward with fiction hundreds of times. You can gain new ideas, new creative energy or it may help you relax and recharge energy for when you don't want to "waste" your time.
I held the same belief as you a few years ago - I only wanted to read something if it was going to increase my technical skills.
But there's certain works, literary classics, which started to fascinate me - because these books changed the world. Nowadays, it's technology that changes viewpoints - but there are parallels between good technology and good storytelling.
I also see certain classic films being just as important. Watch all of 'easy rider' and see how it affects you, moves you emotionally.
I still read mostly technical documents, but reading some of the classics can expand your viewpoints. I reread 1984 and brave new world last year for example - I'd read them in high school but clearly didn't appreciate them back then. Just being able to discuss those books with others who have read them have opened up some amazing conversations.
Depends on the kind of fiction, and what you're trying to get, I guess.
Personally, I see lot of value in science fiction books. They're good at exploring impact of technological changes on people (both on individual and societal level), and they can also be very inspiring. Also, the less such work is about people and their relationship, the more I like it - what I look for in science fiction is ideas and inspirations, not the boring interpersonal drama our lives are so full of already.
It's important to think about what is or isn't wasted time. I think about it a lot, because to me, time is the most precious resource - I won't be alive for that long, my time being young is almost over...
To make the most out of my time as a human in this planet, I seek novel things, that will enrich my experience. Doing the exact same things today that I did yesterday is wasted time, because I will feel the same way, and I will be repeating the experience.
Reading good fiction improves my experience as a human. The feeling of the places, the characters and the occurrences is always unique, and (with a good book) I gain new insights of what being a human means.
Non-fiction books are also good, but I don't really get the same feeling for them. The best way of explaining it is also the most boring: It's like watching a good movie vs a good documentary. I get a totally different feeling from a movie, and given the choice, I will almost always go for the movie.
Speaking for myself, I tend to alternate between fiction and non-fiction books. Generally, fiction books are story-driven (any sci-fi/fantasy/general fiction) and center around relationships between characters overlaid with some other topics. This means any good fiction is a setting custom built to examine specific aspects of humanity or some aspect of the world we live in or could live in. Any reasonably 'good' fiction is an exploration of highs and lows and challenges and redemptions, and I believe that these lead us to be better able to understand our fellow humans, and allow us to better think about and imagine the situations we might face in our lives or re-examine experiences we've had.
Sometimes the pleasure of reading fiction is simply to be entertained. Look at the popularity of TV and film - can you imagine never watching a fictional story again?
Teachers always tell their pupils to read often and to read widely. Why? Because the more you expose yourself to a wide range of writing styles the greater the chance it will help improve your own writing (regardless of whether you write fiction or non-fiction).
Fiction arguably lets the writer compose sentences with more freedom and creative licence than the non-fiction writer. The more you read, the more likely that some of that will rub off in your own writing or influence the rhythm of your own writing.
Could I ask you to begin with stating why you think it is "wasted"? That seems like a very odd viewpoint to take. If nothing else, entertainment has value in itself.
I loved The Nix. There were chapters that left me physically stunned after reading them. It's as massive a creative achievement as anything I encountered in recent years.
Leaving the worlds of business and technology to study messy human relationships can only help to increase empathy in our industry.
Einstein's Dreams by Alan Lightman is also fiction and one of the best books I have ever read. I read it over 20 years ago and some of the stories in it still flash in my mind.
Definitely going to re-read it. It is a fast read.
I'm actually glad. Everytime I talk with people about books I'm saddened by how little non-fiction people read, they only want to read fun novels.
I love fiction, especially fantasy and sci-fi. Reading just fiction or reading just non-fiction are both a pity, you are missing out on great experiences.
I am under the impression that fiction has won, so seeing non-fiction win around here feels good to me. May be my impression is mistaken? May be that's just where I live?
Completely agree with you on not considering fiction as time wasted. I know great thinkers like Elon Musk (and even Mark Zuckerberg) read Sci-fi fictions. In my opinion, Sci-fi fiction books open our minds to not put a hard-limit on implementations of scientific ideas and endeavors. Allowing us to expand our horizon to possibilities which we otherwise would have thought as 'not feasible'.
Eh, I keep those circles separate. Programmers usually don't discuss or care about literature in my experience. Like any hobby, just gotta find the people that do.
Self-fulfilling prophecy. If we shut down the conversation about literature when it starts, then yes we'll never discuss it ;)
I'm always pleased to see posts on literature show up on the HN[0], but often disappointed to see so few comments. But enough people are up-voting them that they do regularly appear on the front page, so there's clearly enough interest around here.
Self-fulfilling prophecy indeed, and also very self-limiting. Personally, I got some of the best fiction recommendations from people here on HN, and I'm very thankful for them.
I like seeing fictional books since I can relate to the people writing them. If I enjoyed some of the fictional books that people talk about, then I'll go along with their non-fiction recommendations. Also, reading fiction shouldn't be treated like time wasted! I see that comment a lot by people who only read the non-fiction books, but I highly disagree with that thought. For another comment I guess.
One way to do that is to have different sections, one for fiction and one non-fiction. I'd love to see that here.
On that note, I've actually experienced that here, with some of the book recommendation threads, finding comments with books I also like and then reading the others. Always fun to talk to people who read the same as you.