Which in turn reminds me of Richard Feynman describing the Mayan Calendar in his famous lectures on quantum mechanics, as an example of how the Mayans understood how the planets moved by looking, that they even figured out a number of patterns and predictions, but that they still did not know why the planets moved as they did, his point being that current understanding of quantum mechanics is very similar to this[0].
At the end, he tangentially mentions that we only know about this calendar because it is described in one of the three surviving books of their culture, out of thousands[1]
> "Just imagine our civilization reduced to three books, just the particular ones left by accident, which ones... So eh.. anyway, I get off the subject..."
The genocide of Native Americans is of course horrible by itself, but somehow this remark made me realize what "genocide" means beyond people being killed en masse. So much culture and knowledge was lost.
And the reason that there are only a few surviving books is that the Spanish conquerors plucked those out to send back to Europe as curios before they burned down all the libraries.
This stuff drives me so nuts. It also seems to be something that I've only ever noticed being done by religious people who follow done monotheistic believe. Does anyone know if any destruction of a culture and its artifacts had happened by someone not motivated by monotheistic delusions?
This was a honest question. With so many atrocities going on it's hard to differentiate which ones don't only seek out to kill all members of a given culture but also their cultural artifacts. Thank you for listing several that fit the bill.
There was a interesting discussion somewhere (can't remember where) that called communism the first techno religion. The idea was that everything is build around the expectation that labor will become less important and owning means of production becomes paramount because of automation. Very relevant thoughts nowadays. Nice to look in the mirror of the past.
I highly recommend Eric Hoffer's The True Believer if you're interested this topic at all. It's a short book full of major ideas.
Hoffer's treatment of the phenomenon is just as fresh and relevant today as it was when he wrote the book in the 1950s.
I got downvoted for suggesting that Maoism was a religion, but it quite clearly had more commonalities than differences with the more extremist religious cults (as did Stalinism, Nazism, etc.)
It was common in the ancient world -- "we won because our god(s) are greater than your god(s)."
Look at the (pagan/polytheist) Romans' actions in the seige and destruction of (monotheist) Jerusalem, for one example. Or (pagan) Viking raids on English/Welsh/Irish Christian monasteries for another.
That’s exactly what I just said... the Spaniards burned all of the books except for a small handful which were sent back to Europe as curios.
> We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction. – Bishop De Landa
Once again someone many have accused of tinfoil battery being shown to be onto some nugget of truth. He had a medical scare recently, anyone know how he's doing?
This is why liberals are sometimes using the term genocide more broadly in a way conservatives don’t like. They reference things like “black genocide” and conservatives get mad because the actual slayings are too few to be considered “genocide”.
Yet in terms of lost culture, putting a high enough percentage of individuals in prison, and confining enough of the others to ghettos, while driving them out of historical cultural centers, has an equivalent result to genocide in some ways.
Essentially, a percentage of the people can be alive while also having “the culture” be as dead as dead can be.
Of course the culture is born again in a different form, as Native American culture endures today, despite “genocide”. And rendering that invisible is just a continuation of that genocide so I certainly don’t want to intimate that such culture is truly gone.
> Of course the culture is born again in a different form, as Native American culture endures today
Well, a culture is born again; culture just tends to happen if you put people together, it's in our blood. The question is whether it flourishes. I am from Europe so cannot say this for certain, but I get the impression that all over both American continents, Native Americans are still very much an ethnic minority whose rights are being trampled over.
You can't take HN threads into pure ideological warfare like this. It isn't what this site is for, and it's toxic to what it is for, namely intellectual curiosity. Since we've warned you before, and you obviously don't want to use the site as intended, I've banned this account.
How about you instead engage with that individual if you disagree? I don't find his comment unwelcoming to discussion. Now, whether he is correct or wrong is entirely separate, but from my point of view all I'm seeing is discussion being shutdown in the name of feelings and prevailing opinion.
"It should be noted - this definition as genocide as destruction of a culture (instead of physical murder of a people) also supports the idea of "white genocide":
A targeted effort by people with power to liquidate white peoples' group identity ("abolish whiteness") and to marginalize and obscure their traditional cultural touchstones ("don't teach books by dead white men" and related efforts to avoid teaching Shakespeare, the Bible, old white philosophers, etc), efforts to bring in many immigrants to make whites minorities in areas where they were previously a majority (and gleeful anticipation of this outcome), etc."
In his defense, it's difficult to want to waste time debating with this line of reasoning. There are some huge unfounded assumptions being made right here in a well thought out way. A nugget of possible truth, mixed with a lot of personal opinion. With that said, doesnt seem like it would lead to a productive conversation.
I'm not sure why the need to insert white males into the equation. That argument is based on you believing there is a secret organized attack against white men going on. I think thats open to interpretation depending on who you are. If anything, I, as a minority, see a balancing of power. Im also aware that whitw males still dominate the economical and political spectrum, so its even harder to agree with this logic. Is thus attack being perpetuated by other white males? To what gain? It seems to me that it appears as an attack on white males, when white males are no longer allowed to dominate culturally, economically, or in numbers in certain areas. They arent being excluded, others are being allowed to the table. That means more chairs need to be pulled up and you cant have the entire meal to yourself. I can't call that "cultural genocide". The role of white male in society remains much the same. This argument makes me think of the people who complain about AA hires, while ignoring the fact that the company is comprised of 85% white hires.
At the end, he tangentially mentions that we only know about this calendar because it is described in one of the three surviving books of their culture, out of thousands[1]
> "Just imagine our civilization reduced to three books, just the particular ones left by accident, which ones... So eh.. anyway, I get off the subject..."
The genocide of Native Americans is of course horrible by itself, but somehow this remark made me realize what "genocide" means beyond people being killed en masse. So much culture and knowledge was lost.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZMXWmlp9g&t=25m28s
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZMXWmlp9g&t=32m26s