Start thinking, "What can I bring to the party?" In entrepreneurship, people won't partner/hire for long term development potential, because there isn't the time. That means a lot of the value of a business degree is gone if you can't show that you can deliver some value upfront.

Ideally some proven track record of doing that that you can show people helps. Organize an event, work the phones, meet more people, do some marketing, do some media purchasing, learn finance, learn how to write contracts, learn how to interview/hire/manage... things like that. The more you can prove you've got something valuable to bring to the party, the easier it'll be. Deck is already stacked against you - there's more people with business credentials that want a technical partner than vice-versa, but if you've got legit proven skills it shouldn't be too hard. Build/prove those skills out.

"In entrepreneurship, people won't partner/hire for long term development potential"

Agreed, a while ago I interviewed for a startup and got rejected even though I knew the stuff like book keeping were pretty easy to learn, but I haven't done before.

With the list of biz skills you mentioned, I've done more than half of them (I was a very active student). But you are right about "there's more people with business credentials that want a technical partner than vice-versa". The advantage I have I guess, is that not many people have as much passion to start a business as I do.

Hi friend, having more "passion" is unfortunately not a real advantage. Pretty much everyone will say they're harder working and more passionate when trying to hustle for a job, vc money, a partner, whatever.

What's more important is tangible evidence of that passion, something that can be measured; what you have started, how many users, how much revenue, etc.

While it may be true you that you have a ton of passion, at the end of the day its just fluff. Its much easier to persuade people with statistics than with ideals.

"Tangible evidence of passion" - points taken! :)

The odds are stacked against you if you don't know the area you are in. This is because you can't control the competency of the people you hire or the work they do, so you have a random factor that has a direct and long lasting influence on your companies success.

After my first software startup I tried a hardware product and failed miserably because of my lack of knowledge. To remedy this for next time I am formally learning the areas where we failed (electronics + cad) and when I'm ready I will try again.

Theres so much that can go wrong with a startup that it's just not worth adding another element into the mix.

Thanks for sharing your insights. How much do I really need to "know" the area? Do you mean actually knowing what's going in the technology or just an understanding of industry/process?

I assume the next time you see an opportunity in the hardware business and want to jump onto it, you wouldn't be taking a 4 year undergrad course to know the drill.

And what's your experience of "learning by doing"?

Thanks!

You need enough knowledge to know when someone is making the right decision or not for your business. I run a successful software company, have hired and managed many programmers and still got it wrong with hardware.

>I assume the next time you see an opportunity in the hardware business and want to jump onto it, you wouldn't be taking a 4 year undergrad course to know the drill.

That's actually exactly what I'm doing - although after you have a degree it only takes a year or so to go through the relevant programs, and if you know people in the university it's easy to get private tutoring for specific gaps. It's not like the courses are difficult once you learn how to learn. Plus, you get to see who would be a good fit in your next startup.

Learning by doing: Perhaps I'm just not smart enough, but I need to understand some theory before I can do it right in practice, and I learn best talking to knowledgeable people. I fumble and make too many costly mistakes when learning something completely new without guidance. We all have our weak points :)

Thanks for you advice, especially about the reduced learning curve. Really appreciated!

I was in a similar situation as you and decided to leave my banking job of 5 years to study computer science full time. Now I am so glad I did. You might be able to hack something together in your spare time, but unless you really understand what's going on then you won't know what to do when it breaks. Taking the time to learn is as much a risk management strategy as it is a means to an end.

Wow man that's some dedication and big risk taking! How long did it take you to learn CS full time for?

I actually saw staying in my current position as the riskier option. Sometimes staying put is the riskiest thing you can do. I am about 3 months into my studies. I started with the MIT Intro to Programming with Python course, Stanford's Intro to CS with Java course, and Harvard's CS75/CS50 Course. These are all online and free. I am also enrolled in a discrete math class and an advanced programming fundamentals course a local university. Additionally, I am learning Django and working on a web app. I find this makes me much more engaged along the way. To answer your question, I haven't 'learned CS', but I am much more comfortable than I was three months ago. I expect it to be like that forever.

”Sometimes staying put is the riskiest thing you can do“ - thumbs up!

The thing you need to do if you're paying for code is to find a way to minimize waste. Every change is costly, and your coding competitors won't have to eat those same costs.

Practically, one way to do that is to go sell a product that doesn't exist. And I mean sell it, not just get feedback. Get an actual contract from the customer and their buyin to help you build out the concept.

Build a high ticket item- this probably means a b to b product. You need as much skin in the game from your first customer as you can get and cheap products wont get it done.

Getting this contract is difficult, and the people i know who've taken this route admit that their first contract had hole a mile wide that allowed their customer to walk at any time. But, it sets the scene for collaboration and puts some psychological incentive out there to help keep everyone interested.

Only after you've sold your first customer do you then hire coders. Since your money will be somewhat fictitious at this point, you may have to look for a founderish type of coder, but thats ok. It will be bucket loads easier (and cheaper in terms of equity) to find one with a contract in hand.

I know someone who's done this twice, and both times, he achieved huge exits without outside substantial outside funding. The products were boring, but the businesses were outstanding.

Argh, cost of iteration is definitely going to be a major factor to consider, thanks for pointing it out.

And the "Sell before build" approach definitely worths a try if I'm building something b2b, but for b2c it probably won't work. Most of the b2c startups nowadays don't make any money until 2 - 3 years down the track. But I guess this tactic can apply to selling my b2c idea to investors.

Heres what I did: I started out learning HTML/CSS, which I think is crucial. It'll take a few weeks to learn. I think it's pretty necessary to know if you're getting into the web; it's also simple enough.

Then you can figure out how to get a basic site up. This will keep you learning, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to understand how to do all this stuff. Use your new found skills to build up something basic, but something that can make you a bit of money. I built www.iPadCaseFinder.com, it got quite a bit of press, and made $3k~ in 3 months, and I sold it for the same amount. Use this money to hire a designer, get the mockups done, use your HTML/CSS skills to code them, and apply any necessary jQuery, etc. Then use that to find a programmer :-) (Or rinse and repeat, use the new money to hire a programmer).

I'm assuming your skills are business and marketing, so use those skills well.

Also, network.

Hey dude, when iPadCaseFinder.com first came out my friend said to me "this guy is so smart, got into the game before everyone else"! Congrats on the success!

I do know some HTML/CSS codes though can't really build a site from scratch. I've been building websites using wordpress then change the stuff in the theme CSS file.

And agree about the importance of networking :)

Brilliant. I owe a lot to WordPress :-) and cheers on the compliments from your friend!

While I wouldn't recommend this route, it might have worked in my case. I used to know nothing about tech/startups and I ended up outsourcing the initial development of my site while still a full-time student. I learned a lot during the process while fully immersing myself in the tech and startup scene (online, since I'm not in an ideal location yet). I then used the initial traction to get my foot in the door to talk to developers. Without the initial traction and product, I don't think I would have been able to start as many conversations about the future vision and ultimately find a good partnership. Nothing's 100% yet, but I'm on my way. I know time is crucial, but without something to show for yourself, it will be difficult to attract the talent you are looking for.

I think it is all about resources you can bring on the table. Bigger resources means bigger leverage. I think you need to bring business skills AND some money, the more money you have, the better.

I heard that the historical CEO of Nintendo, Hiroshi Yamauchi, didn't know how to use Nintendo gaming machines. He almost never played any of his games. But he has the money and business acumen to hire guys like Gunpei Yokoi (engineer) and Shigeru Miyamoto(game designer).

I also heard that Intuit was started by Scott Cook, a marketing geek, who brought business skills and enough money to lure Tom Proulx. Scott Cook met Tom Proulx when he came to the Stanford campus, looking for a programmer.

So, if you have vision, business skills and are able to raise some money, it is possible.

Seems wikipedia disagrees with what you've heard:

    His grandfather had a stroke in 1949. Since he was the
    president of Nintendo and had no other immediate 
    successor, he asked Hiroshi to come immediately to 
    Nintendo to assume the position of president.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshi_Yamauchi#Start_of_his_c...

Vision, business skills & Money - Points taken! :)

If all else fails, try to be the sole heir of your grandfather's empire ;)

Is Alibaba a tech start-up? Of course it depends on your definition, but I would argue no, it isn't. (Just pause for a second here: how many businesses can you think of that _don't_ rely on technology of some description?)

Alibaba is a business that leverages the web to make it easier and cheaper for suppliers to find buyers and vice versa. An older version of this is perhaps a physical market, or a convention, or some kind of club or association, or simply your rolodex of business contacts. The guy that started Alibaba recognised that the web could bring together and match buyers and sellers on an entirely new scale, and at a very low cost: good for users, and good for building a huge company.

He didn't need to be a tech guy to recognise this. His business is _not_ technology. His business is one of the oldest, and most important of all businesses: introductions.

Of course, had he been a tech guy he could have maybe built a website. I don't know his background, but if he had one or more of the following - decent degree, cash or connections he probably didn't find it too hard to raise some money to hire some guys to code the site.

A tech business, I would argue, would be one developing or selling technology. I don't know - designing computer chips, or writing specialised compilers for example. For this kind of business, then yes you need to be a technologist - you won't be able to understand your product otherwise. But simply utilising technology maketh not a technology company.

So with this definition, absolutely - you do not need to be a techy guy to start one of these businesses (e.g a web-based business). In fact if anything, I reckon it's better if you aren't: technologists often spend way too much time stressing about and optimising the underlying technology, when actually what they need to be worried about is the business model that the technology is powering.

Edit: so an example of a "tech" business that isn't really a tech business: an e-commerce store. Let's say you just wanted to set up an online store to satisfy the increasing demand for ridiculous office/executive toys. Do you need to be a tech guy to do this? No: what you need is a sound understanding of your product lines, the market size, your route to market & sales channels and so on. In terms of setting up an online shop there's a million providers who'll set this up for you with custom designs, transaction processing and everything else you'll need to get started - just as there are all the other providers of services that you might need - legal advice, accounting, payroll, inventory management, CRM etc etc.

That's a great way of differentiating between "tech startups" and "web-based startups", and they certainly require very different skill sets to get them off the ground.

To me the "web-based business" category is definitely the area I'm more interesting in, and have the right skills to execute the idea. Cheers!

On a random note, what's your take on a CEO with no tech background heading a company of, say, chemical engineering?

Fine I would have thought, assuming the person in question is suitably qualified in other areas. I think being a CEO is more about business strategy, business development and requires helicopter view of all a businesses operations - sales, marketing, IT, finance etc. Of course you need _some_ knowledge and understanding of the businesses products and services - but you probably don't need a degree in chem eng. A CEO's remit is a broad one - a generalist not necessarily a specialist. To check this, take a look at the CEOs of FTSE100/Fortune500 firms.

If you have an idea and you are a great communicator who doesn't shy away from selling, cold calling, deal making, etc, you would be a very valuable co-founder for many techies. If you have some industry knowledge that would be even more valuable (but supposedly, as a recent graduate, you don't). Not all web startups are very technology centric.

Thanks for your insights. I was quite successful selling sponsorship package for an not-for-profit organisation I cofounded a while back. Industry knowledge is probably a weakness, what's the best way to gain industry knowledge? (following HN is definitely one good way)

HN only covers a smallish section of the tech industry. What so many techies lack is knowledge of other industries or connections to other industries. So if you go work for a few years in finance, retail, oil exploration or whatever, you're going to be quite an interesting co-founder for technology focused startup founders.

Totally agree! A cross-disciplinary approach is definitely the future of... well pretty much every industry, thanks for the advice :)

Simple, don't think of it as a tech startup. Find a way to make money without writing code. I started off using Google Docs before paying to get a Rails app built. Once the money is coming in, even just a few bucks, you can work on attracting people with time and/or money to help you scale.

I'm in a similar situation. I've started businesses before and I LOVE doing it myself. I'll learn everything I can, put together a simple website and then run everything alone. I recently put a business plan together for an internet startup that I feel has amazing potential, but it's also a huge undertaking and involves a lot of web programming that I can't do. I want to find a dedicated tech co-founder but money and time are huge issues. If the person is a co-founder then you would be in the same boat where nobody is getting paid, but then why would someone even agree to be a co-founder if the only promise of money was the hope of outside funding. Can a great idea be enough to attract talent?

A tech and a biz founder make a great team! There are many great tech people with little interest in the business side of things. The question is how to find a tech co-founder who is interested in your idea.

Depending where you are located, you should visit the local hackerspaces, meetups and everything else to get to know tech savvy people. Talk with some people about your ideas and see how they react. Don't offer them to be co-founders at the first date, but build a network of competent people you like. After a while you will get a feeling if somebody might be the right match.

Good luck!

Thanks for the advice about networking! I totally think this is a good strategy. Can you share some of the insights about how to pick a great tech cofounder?

> Yes I could spend the next 12-24 months to learn coding but we know in the start-up world it's all about speed to market.

The more coding you know the better your income prospects, the more valuable your skill set will be in a tech startup, and the more potential co-founders you will meet.

12-24 months is nothing in the development of a business.

And sufficiently developing relationships with good potential technical co-founders could easily take longer.

> I just finished my business degree and > want to get into tech start-ups.

Do you have a specific concept for a business? Most people actually have a clear concept of what they want to do before they start asking how to find a programmer. If you have such a concept please email me and tell me about it, my email address is in my profile.

Sorry m8 but you should read more about Jack Ma and how he started Alibaba.com. As I remember prior to this he worked at governments official yellow pages site for quite some time. He obviously had a good contact network and was well known for many business owners in his country...

I read his biography, in fact he collaborated with a friend based in the States to start the first version of that yellow pagesish site (it was during a time when nobody knew what internet was), which was later either acquired or started a new joint venture with the government.

The point I wanted to make - it's clear why you need a tech co-founder, but why would such a person need you in particular and not the other business guy?

You need passion, potential and patience to succeed with a tech startup.

well, I'm a nerd pretending to be a business guy, not the other way around, but I think some of the same lessons apply.

First nobody will take you seriously (as a business guy or a nerd) without some experience. so we need to get you some experience.

Do you have cash? if not, go get a regular job. get it the way regular business grads do it (what I mean, is you need cash for the first step. not a lot of cash, but some. a job, in my experience, is the easiest way to get cash. If the job sounds impressive, it can also count some towards experience. But, if you have enough cash already, you can move on to step two.)

Now, find someone to hire. You can hire inexperienced nerds for very little. depending on where you are, anywhere from min. wage to $15/hr will get you started. Note, you won't get anyone with experience for this rate... but sometimes you get really promising people without that attribute (and you can't afford experience right now, unless you have more money than I think.)

the thing to remember here is that you will probably end up firing the guy. I mean, I know nerds fairly well, and I end up making a lot of mistakes, so you will too. The trick here (and if you can learn this, you will have vastly improved your value as a business person) is to learn how to fire well.

By firing well, I mean you need to learn how to get rid of your mistake without making an enemy or making him or her feel to bad. It's a small community and if you have a rep. as an asshole, you are going to have a hard time picking up your second guy. (and when you find someone you don't need to fire? be /extra careful/ - that guy's friends will be the people you want to hire when he moves on to a higher paying job... or he might be the co-founder you want.)

I think the key is to start people off as contractors without the expectation of continued work. If they don't work out, you pay them for what they did, and the job is over. Nobody's expectations have been violated; nobody feels ripped off, etc... Only move someone into an expectation of longer term employment once they've proven themselves. As you get better you can move on to figuring out how to fire people who have been working for you for a while... but that's pretty rare if you work everyone as contractors first. People will leave, but usually they leave on their own for more money before needing to be pushed.

next, if you do manage to do something cool, always give the nerd who helped a bunch of the technical credit when you are talking to other people. It'll make the guy feel good, and if anything, it makes you look better. Nobody likes (or believes) a business guy who tries to takes all the credit, and really, as a business guy, if you pick the right nerd co-founder, that makes you look really good. by pointing out how good your nerd is, you are pointing out how good you are to have found and kept that nerd.

Hey lsc, thank you so much for your advice about hiring techs on a contracter basis, it's such an eye-opener and I think this might be something I can pursue! (Only if I could upvote multiple times, I'd upvote you multiple times!)

Out of curiosity, does it work the same way for you as a hacker hiring a biz type? For example, if you hire a sales and later fires him, there's the chance that he/she will take your clients away. Thoughts?

>Out of curiosity, does it work the same way for you as a hacker hiring a biz type? For example, if you hire a sales and later fires him, there's the chance that he/she will take your clients away. Thoughts?

I wouldn't know. I'm in a business where face-to-face sales doesn't matter. the value is in the price and reliability. I mean, if someone else wants to build something better and cheaper, I might have a problem, but I don't think anyone would get very far just calling my customer list.

Also, when I do advertise, or "sell" I mostly focus on brand building rather than selling to individual customers, and I own the brand much more than I own the customer list.

If more of my perceived value was in individual customer sales, of course, this would be different.

You do bring up an interesting point, though. most of the people I do this with, I can train, to some extent. I mean, every now and again I'll find a webapp dev who is better than I am at that right off the bat, but most people I've hired required some training from me to get to that point, so it might be that you need to do this with people in your skill area? on the other hand it sounds like you've got some basic tech skills, so it's probably worth a shot.

The closest thing to biz types I've hired are accountants and bookkeepers. I've actually done okay, I think, hiring bookkeepers; as for my accountant, I pay full price just 'cause of the incredible badness of screwing up your taxes.

Accountants and bookkeepers weren't really the "biz type" I was talking about (though they are important), I was talking about sales, marketing and finance guy. Granted, a smart techie willing to learn can learn those stuff too. But I think the type of business really determines whether you'll need to find a biz type cofounder early on, which in your case, a marketing/sales person is useless during the startup phase. Something like Groupon for instance, would probably need sales people early on.

Thanks for the discussion, I found it really stimulating. :)