This is going to sound weird but I've never found any relevance for symbols, nor any understanding of things like 'status'. What you say is like words from another language, or even concepts I don't have. So permit me: what does having status mean in practical terms, if any? Does the judgement of others matter if it's based on, to be blunt, ownership of trinkets?
I think the part you're missing is that unlike in the western cultures, there are places where relationships with your friends and family are far more important than anything else. Like think how to someone living in the US(usually) it's inconceivable to live in one place with 3 generations of people, grandparents, parents and kids, friends nearby. But to these cultures that's where the strength lies, you help them they help you.
But in these cultures it's also incredibly important to be seen as "doing well for yourself". You will see people from these cultures will frequently(for instance) drive a Mercedes, just because that means you've achieved something in life. Doesn't matter the Mercedes in question is 20 years old and on bald tires, it's a Mercedes, parents and grandparents can now say they are proud of you. It increases your social standing. Likewise, if you manage to buy an iPhone, that can be seen a an achievement(even if the iPhone is fake, what matters is people think you can afford an iPhone). Then in turn, if you are seen as successful(by the virtue of having those expensive things) you get better social opportunities, for employment, education, housing....it's almost cliche, but in some places having an iPhone, a good car and a gold chain(all fake of course) can really and measurably improve your standard of life.
Like, have you never seen a movie where a person emigrates to a wealthy country, and writes/calls the family back home saying "oh yeah I have my own bed, a car, a TV and a mobile phone! We eat meat every night" and like at home , that's incredibly impressive, even though to me or you that's just normal stuff.
I understand that concept somewhat, however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this. The materialistic part. Most would not care about clothes or the phone you own. What matters is personality and what you believe in. For example, you have an old phone because you're conscious of the environment. Or, you buy second-hand clothes because the shop donates money to some good cause.
The issue of using fake merch to show-off your status is that others will eventually catch up. Once every second person will have a fake expensive-looking phone, for example, it will lose its meaning. The rich and successful will find other ways to differentiate themselves. And I don't believe that owning a fake phone is going to make you successful. Being successful is a mindset.
> I understand that concept somewhat, however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this.
I agree with your comment, and I believe that these status symbols —fake or not— make people unhappy.
However, I’ll like to point out a few things.
When you say “western cultures”, you mean the US and Europe; Latin America is also part of the western culture but the situation is different. In the US the iPhone is not a status symbol, because even with a low wage you’ll be able to easily get one with a cellphone contract.
But, I don’t think that first world people is “moving past” status symbols, they have others:
Food, what you eat tells a lot about your status — you can see that all the time in the Bay Area.
College, where you got your degree is another symbol of status.
Hobbies, the more expensive —or extravagant— the better.
> however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this. The materialistic part. Most would not care about clothes or the phone you own. What matters is personality and what you believe in.
A beautifully naive and disconnected perspective. Why do you think Instagram or Snapchat or even Facebook are so popular? A good part of it is to show off conspicuous consumption.
If anything, now that they can afford it a bit more, people are even more vain.
Maybe it's just me and my social circle, but showing off richness is considered tasteless. Of course, you'd have good clothes and other things, but they don't need to be of a famous brand or the most expensive ones.
Of course, there are people like those that you've described. They are everywhere. It's just I feel like in western culture, the US and Europe, it is less.
Oh man, wait until someone chimes in saying they buy Rolexes because they have absolutely superior timekeeping. Which sure, they do, but that's definitely not a reason why people buy them.
>I understand that concept somewhat, however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this. The materialistic part.
Citation needed. So far from my point of observation the desire to obtain prestige items, get prestige credentials and live in prestige places has not subsided substantially.
What you describe is known as 'give face'. I'm white, but my ex is chinese and so i have spent a lot of time in those circles and what you write is pretty accurate.
I knew a girl, who had a minimum wage job, but bought her boyfriend a $300 sweater simply to show his parents she had money.. I asked about it, and she pretty much told me it came down to "give face".
i think it is this: "面子" and as others have written, one of the more difficult concepts for western culture to fully understand.
Face is more related to honour, but its very hard to define.
I think giving a gift to prove to someone that your rich is not giving face (that would be if the gift is freely given without the intent of proving your wealth), but rather taking face or in western terms, showing disrespect.
If social status is that important to someone then I think a second-hand genuine iPhone in decent nick would send a better message than a fake new one. Maybe even an old 6000 series Nokia. Like the person is more authentic and looks after their things, and only buys what they need. I could be wrong.
The people you're trying to impress often only get a quick preview into your life. You only get first impressions, and no opportunity to explain why your phone has nicks in it. (Think: business meetings.)
The people spend enough time around you to know that your phone, while looking a little beaten, is actually very reliable -- they don't care what kind of phone you have.
I think the film Parasite portrays the nuances of this kind of status quite well. (Even though the film is slightly comedic, I don't think the portrayal of status is exaggerated in the film.)
I think it also exists in western cultures, especially for immigrants. The way the immigrants (from poorer countries) dress, the phones they use etc can help locals differentiate between "good" immigrants and "bad" immigrants.
I was talking as a westerner, culturally. In fact I have relatives who lived in some considerable deprivation and what you say I recognise strongly. I can understand it in those cultures and in such situations I can imagine myself that way now you've raised it.
In the west I don't see nearly as much (well, I'm in the UK to be precise) and don't actually see it so much in others. But what I do see puzzles me.
Social status is as much important and significant in the West as in other societies. Designer clothes, fancy cars, fancy watches are all used to signal that you belong (or you pretend to belong) to a certain social class, just like the way you talk or the way you behave.
As to why some people who clearly cannot afford these would buy counterfeit goods or (more frequently in the West, accumulate excessive debts to pay them), I assume there is the desire to belong (or appear to belong) to said social class, coupled with the fact that appearance very much matters in our society and people are judged every day based on their appearance rather than their skills or their characters. That judgment can result in better job, promotions, better sexual partner, better social accceptance.
I understand what you're saying because I feel the same way. I think what other commentators are pointing out that many/most people feel differently.
I have a 15 year old car. It runs great. I don't care that paint is peeling or the windshield is cracked.
Personally, I've been taught from a young age to value personal/emotional/spiritual growth over the accumulation of material goods, so I'm certain that upbringing has affected my outlook on this topic.
It’s impossible to have perfect information about everyone and everything around you, so you use the information you have to make assumptions about whatever you need to.
If I’m hiring from a pile of 1,000 resumes, and I don’t have time to review each one and speak to everyone, I’ll use the applicant’s school selectivity as a proxy for the probability of that candidate being a good fit.
Everyone does it, to evaluate how threatening someone looks or how attracted they might be to you, or how much economic value they might present to you, etc.
How accurate the information you’re using to base the assumptions is, of course, subject to change and can be wrong many times. But owning expensive things is considered a clue that the owner has the ability to procure many other resources, which might be relevant for a woman looking for economic security.
If you’re in the US, you can also look up someone’s job title/employer/their house address and get an idea of their income/wealth more accurately than the phone they use, so it might seem nonsensical in the US.
I live in an Eastern European country, and I see more BMWs here than my home country (UK). It's not that they are more reliable than other cars (I'd say the opposite infact), but having a BMW (even a 15 year old one that's starting to rust...) gives you status.
Let's take that and ask: this status that having a beemer gives you, do other people care? Or is it status in the owner's eyes?
From another direction, how would an average citizen C of your country size up another person D who's bought BMW? Would C actually think significantly better of D?
I went to a school where there was a large mix of wealth, some kids were extremely well off, multi-millionaire parents, and bought new (expensive and high quality) clothes. Quite a few others bought from charity shops (often of necessity like me). Not once in the years I was there did I ever hear any reference to clothes, or any measure of a person related to their clothing. It was all down to the person you were and I don't imagine our school was any special in that.
It's both. Again, from my own perspective - I know some friends groups where someone saying "dude, Mark has a beemer! And it's a 320d!!!" Means that Mark is now as popular as a highschool cheerleader girl. He will be invited to more parties, to different employment opportunities(even if those opportunities to me and you would be probably a bit "sketchy"), it just makes you popular, and popular people often(but not always) have it easier in life. Again in the same group of people, if Mark wants to do "business" of some kind, people will automatically respect him more and care about his opinion, because clearly, a man with a BMW, an iPhone(fake, but no one knows), golden chain and signet(also fake), must be at least moderately successful - how else would be come to own these things if he wasn't?
And no, I'm not being sarcastic, this is literally how people think.
And also, I think a form of this also exists in the West - I've heard many times that if you drive say, a Ferrari, people will approach you and literally ask "hey, you're successful - how can I get to where you are?". Sure some will be hateful, but some will be genuinely intrigued how you came into possession of this wealth and how can they replicate it.for themselves - they respect you despite knowing absolutely nothing about you, purely because you drive a fancy car. Again, not universal, but I know it happens. Same principle applies to that fake iPhone.
I think trying to analyse status purely in 'practical terms' is somewhat to miss the core driver of it. As a species, we tend to 'status-seeking' behaviours I think because we've evolved as primates who lived in medium-sized social groups where your position in the social hierarchy mattered a lot -- and judgement of others is exactly what defines your position. So part of your brain has evolved to make social comparisons, to obsess about what other people think of you, and to try to improve and act out your position in a hierarchy, even if objectively that behaviour in the modern world is not logically defensible or something that will make you happier.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was always useless in the modern world -- as you say it's often effective. After all, we're still social primates operating in small groups! I think what I was trying to say was rather that to analyse this behaviour purely as "what is the rational reason for this action" gets you less far than looking at it as an emotionally-driven tendency that's driven by the part of our brain that is not the rational-conscious-thought part. Sometimes it's the rational thing to do, sometimes it's something we can construct a rationale for after the fact (our brains are very good at that), and sometimes it's genuinely a bad choice that a perfect rational robot would not make. But whichever of those any particular 'status-seeking' act falls into, I don't think many people are making the choice as a conscious purely reasoned cost-benefit tradeoff.
OK, now this I would get me on the same page! But most women don't seem to care much for an expensive X, whatever that may be. Some do sure, but many? IDK
That's your experience, others have, well, others. I grew up and live in a place where some people attribute a lot of value to certain branded shoes (which retail for more than iphones). Airpods are a status symbol.
TL;DR, it matters to some people. Those people are not you or me. I don't get it, but I do.
What's interesting is if people go into debt to obtain these status symbols, they're tricking a person into thinking they're well off, but by buying the status symbol, they're avoiding investments that may actually make them well off. I look past this for financial frugality. I'm very impressed by someone who can afford a very nice car but instead choose to drive their 15 year old Honda because it's still good.
Oh I totally agree, as with seemingly most of us here, I don't value status symbols very highly. That doesn't mean I don't understand why other people do.
No, don't. Even if there trolling it's actually a valid question and very much front of my mind as I wrote.
No I'm not, I believe I have good theory of mind and I'm pretty empathetic, but I have wondered if those with asperger's may feel like I do in this aspect, and whether, as I said, that a certain part of my mind is missing, failed to develop, or something. Perhaps some people just aren't materialistic, and that's all.
Edit: just realised, the responses here are largely about 'we' or claims about how 'other people' feel. There seems a remarkable lack of people talking about how they themselves feel when they have status symbols. Perhaps we're not that rare as a group.
Almost everything we buy do own is about status we want for ourselves or show to others. Fake iphones could be used as status symbol for wealth in some parts of the world. In others it could be employment at a FAANG company, name in a research paper, false degree or membership at an exclusive club. All are different sorts of status symbols why we need them is because humans are basically animals and these status symbols for whatever reason signify strength which we feel we need instinctively even if not actively pursued.
This just doesn't ring true to me. It sounds like you're projecting your own motivation on to others.
> Employment at a FAANG company.
I want to get paid more, and work on hard/interesting problems.
> Name on a research paper
I want credit for my work of course (why would you go out of your way to not have your name on a paper you contributed to), but impressing others is not the reason I would be in research (again - solving interesting/hard problems and hopefully making the world a little bit better would probably be the motivation if that was my career)
> False degree
I wouldn't want this.
> Membership at an exclusive club
Presumably this exclusive club does something together that I'm interested in, or at least has members that I want to talk to about something I'm interested in. (Or maybe we just go out to eat socially, that sounds fun).
Of course signalling status is useful as a means to an end. (E.g. I would want to appear as a competent/successful developer while applying for said FAANG job, or as a wealthy person while applying for a business loan). But I gain little joy from status in and of itself.
This is where you're projecting. You're answering my question by referring to what you want only.
> is about status we want for ourselves or show to others...why we need them is because...signify strength which we feel we need
There is a symmetry here that may be escaping you, that I am not you and don't share these feelings. And I've found that many people not only don't understand that, they actually can't. Like I said, it's almost as if I'm missing concepts others have.
Even in that case, the answer to your question is trivially: other people place value on the impractical, ephemeral aspects of the world, that you don't.
The problem is not that he's projected values onto you, but rather that you're failing to empathize with others (because your original question was essentially "why do people care about it?"; not "why should I care about it).
And if you assume that some or even many people do care about status symbols, and we have evidence of it in that these status markets do exist, then it becomes trivial to see where the value lies.
If you want to get into why do people place values on status symbols, the simple answer is that as a society we primarily communicate by such means; we build internal representations and assumptions and initially learn the value systems of other people based on the initial perception -- this may prove wrong, and may be corrected in longer conversation, but the vast majority of people we see we will never engage with thoroughly enough to use language as the primary basis of communication.
We need something quicker, and often we need a good filter, because we simply do not have the time, energy or interest to engage with every individual properly. It is extremely useful to be able to identify someone interesting in a crowd/party, and it is optimal to spend the majority of your time with people who interest you.
And of course there are many symbols and flags one might be interested in -- gold watches and iphones to signify wealth and prestige; reputation and parties to signify social connections; references to TV, movies, artists etc to signify cultural background and interests; clothing to signify class
> rather that you're failing to empathize with others
Spot on, I don't get it.
> It is extremely useful to be able to identify someone interesting in a crowd/party, and it is optimal to spend the majority of your time with people who interest you.
The latter part of the sentence, sure, the former part, no. Having a fancy phone/expensive says precisely zero to me about someone's capacity to be interesting.
> there are many symbols and flags one might be interested in...
And with all that, you've just embedded my sense of bafflement! I have little and the things I care about are ephemeral but not tangible. I guess I'll have to thank you for trying but must concede defeat.
I'm going to assume you agree that people, in general, assume certain things based on how other's look. We see dundee hat, and assume an australian. We see a star trek shirt, and assume they like star trek. Etc.
The singular direction of assumption I think, is obviously true.
But this mode of communication has two parties -- you, and the person/people looking at you.
Once we realize that other people are assuming things about us, based on what we have, wear and show, then the next step is to realize we can shape their assumptions, by doing two things:
1. Understand what things lead to what assumptions
2. Decide our target assumption, and change what we show to lead to those assumptions
So, like a bird with a mating call, we can signal to our peers what interests and goals we have, which they can choose to follow to reach us.
And like a bird with a mating call, which has certain qualities and factors governing fitness of the bird, we can be better or worse and producing stronger signals, and a poorly constructed signal can instead work against us -- If I want to be known as a nerd, I better not confuse star trek and star wars (even in honest forgetting) lest I expose a new signal, of a fake nerd.
And vice versa, we follow the mating calls to those that interest you. The iphone tells you nothing -- its not a signal you'll follow. For someone else, it might be a valuable signal. But for you, its not, and that's perfectly fine. You listen to other calls. Like perhaps, those that signal a preference towards "practical" thinking and needs.
They didn't make claims about themselves only - they claimed that everyone is motivated by this ("we"). Or at least that was my interpretation of the comment.
This is going to sound weird but I've never found any relevance for symbols, nor any understanding of things like 'status'. What you say is like words from another language, or even concepts I don't have. So permit me: what does having status mean in practical terms, if any? Does the judgement of others matter if it's based on, to be blunt, ownership of trinkets?
Not trolling, genuine question.