I often find that PHP coders lack a total understanding of the LAMP stack. "Apache configuration? Huh? I don't know, our admins do that." "MySQL? I don't know, I'm not a DBA. I'm a developer." "UNIX commands?!! I don't like going in the terminal. I'm a developer." No, sorry, you're not a developer. You're a glorified web page editor.

Is PHP that different from other platforms in this regard? Any Java programmer knows ins and out of Tomcat, any ASP programmer is MSSQL expert?

* > Any Java programmer knows ins and out of Tomcat, any ASP programmer is MSSQL expert?*

I'd hope they are experts, or at least have no trouble learning quickly. If they can't manage MSSQL or Tomcat, how do they set up their local development environment, implement automated integration tests, etc?

They inherit it from whoever worked on the code before them.

I work on Java every day. I probably have a better grasp of Tomcat than many people at my company. If we somehow magically lost all our Apache/Tomcat configuration files, there's no way in hell I could build it from scratch.

(I can, however, build a scalable system based around PHP web apps with my eyes closed. I'm not super proud of that.)

Bullshit. You don't have to be a sysadmin to be a developer. Web devs often know the whole stack, but you're still a web dev if someone else in your company handles those parts..

You missed the point: they are talking about people who do not know those aspects of the LAMP stack, not the ones who can afford delegating them to DBAs and sysadmins. The first group are indeed glorified web page editors.

Again, bullshit. I've had PHP projects that were entirely command-line with no Apache and MySQL. If you want to argue that those projects weren't development, that's absurd.

Systems and database administration are hugely complimentary skills, but someone who doesn't know anything about setting either one up is still developing.

I agree with you in a literal sense. I'd add the adjective 'extremely poorly' to 'developing' for any developer who doesn't have a thorough grasp of the system for which they are developing.

An artist can make great art without knowing the details of how the dyes in their paint are manufactured. The same is true for development.

Can an artist make great art without knowing to use oil paint on canvas, instead of watercolor (or whatever - I'm not an artist)?

How about knowing the difference between types of brushes and what effect they have on the canvas? Is it 'great art' if it's accidental?

Yes, and yes.

That said, this is more like arguing that you can't be a great artist if you don't know how to make the canvas yourself.

Exactly. I'm trying to get into the state where the only machine where I have root is my phone or laptop.

I can't even imagine how many developers out there started with WordPress and think the ramshackle way it's put together is normal.

Probably the same type of developer that assumes WordPress is an example of professional PHP code.

It's true. The problem is it's often the only PHP code they know. Many people do assume it's an example of good code, since it's so popular and essentially works.

WordPress is really an excellent companion to PHP itself - created by beginners who had no idea about how to design a language or framework. They have each since become somewhat respectable, but are shackled by the attempts they made to preserve backwards compatibility in the early days.