Watching Americans freak out about post-8AM sunrises is surreal to me. The sun doesn't rise until 8:45 during the darkest times of the year here in the Netherlands and its really not much of an issue.
Whether standard time or summer time is the better choice here is something I hold no opinion on, but the sheer hysteria some people here express is very overblown.
Wasn't there a study or two that living on the western edge of a time zone poses higher health risks, presumably because people have to get up before sunrise to get to work.
This why I, personally, would prefer standard time over DST. I really hate early mornings, and DST causes all mornings to be one hour earlier.
Yeah, this is what makes me mad about this debate. Permanent DST proponents talk about how they like having daylight at the end of the day after work. Well, weigh that mild preference against the very real physiological harm it causes. They want to enjoy their afternoons. I want to work a normal 9-5 job without getting heart disease because of the stress of waking up before sunrise eight months out of the year.
That's funny, I'd also like to avoid the stress of having the sun rise at 2-3am in the summer. It's almost as if there's no right answer here and the current status quo just makes everyone unhappy and unhealthy.
The earliest that sunrise happens in the continental US is around 5AM during DST, so the earliest it would go is 4AM. That is in the extreme north of the country (excluding Alaska, which I'd say is not worth including in the conversation given its unique circumstances), on the eastern edges of time zones. So I don't know what you're talking about. If you read the article linked above, it specifically points out that there are measurable, concrete negative health effects from DST but not from standard time. So no, the sun rising early doesn't really stress you out the same way getting up before sunrise does. Not at all.
I live farther north and not in the US, but since your decisions on this inevitably impact my own country's I still care about what you do, even if I don't get a say in it.
At any rate, yes, the sun rising at 4am would also stress me out. In fact, given that I'm in a position to tell you what it's like in a place where that happens for part of the year, I can inform you from personal experience that it is indeed disruptive to circadian rhythm to have the sun rise even "moderately" early.
I'm sure people in Alaska think you're a great person for telling them they don't matter, though.
Don't need to go to Alaska. Sunrise (with DST) is 5AM with EDT in downeast Maine at the summer solstice and as early or earlier in pretty much every major Canadian city.
Here in Seattle, sunrise is as early as 5:10am or so in the middle of June. However, with civil twilight included, you're looking at a pretty bright sky from 4:30am to 10pm.
We're not even that far north here, but waking up out of a light sleep at 4am can certainly be bothersome.
As a kid, I always enjoyed the time of year when i would walk to school in the dark before sunrise. It had a quiet serenity, and bonus points if it was snowing.
My takeaway is that it's a matter of personal predisposition. Maybe people should move to the east or west end of their timezone based on their light-vs-dark time-of-day preferences. :)
It's mostly because US is a big place (lng/lat diversity) and folks are rather mobile within it's borders. So, it becomes common to hear stories of the Floridian that moved to Seattle and how depressing it is.
Is Hamburg also permanently clouded in Winter like Berlin?
(In Berlin we often have a non-stop gray sky pretty often from somewhere in December to "mid" or so February with just a few days exceptions, especially January is super painful. I honestly would prefer shorter colder but clear-skyed days with snow).
Pretty much. It'd get below freezing some days when it was clear and then snow. But that only happened a handful of times. I think Berlin is probably colder than Hamburg. Most of the Fall/Spring was 8C and raining in Hamburg.
I have lived my entire life in 3 different cities, all of which have regional reputation for "it rains a lot".
I do NOT understand the complaining, I'm sorry. First of all, "grey" isn't dark - grey overcast days are still plenty bright. Blue skies are lovely, sure. But you know what every place I've lived in gets for all that rain? LUSH, GREEN FOILAGE. Grass, trees, everywhere. LIFE.
You know what else comes with all that rain? Temperate climates. It's never too hot or too cold. We don't need airconditioning in the summer (except for a couple of days), nor have to shovel snow in the winter (except for a couple of days).
I look at something like Arizona that people rave about the climate over and I see dusty desolate deserts, where people have to spend exhorbitant amounts of water to keep tiny patches of parks and grasses alive.
I understand comparing tropical oceanfront climates like Florida and California unfavourably - there is a reason we think of these areas as vacation getaway hotspots. But most people complaining aren't from those climates - they are just from other parts of the world that are more "seasonal" and so they expect big snowstorms in the winter, and long hot days without rain in the summer. But all complaints about needing the sun, or the lack of vitamin D, are all subjective personal experiences.
Having grown up and lived with it all my life, I think it's highly offensive how people complain about the rain without acknowledging all the benefits that it brings.
I moved from Indiana to Norway. You just get used to it and it isnt a big deal (sunrise is closer to 10am in December, with sunset around 2 or 2:30pm). Folks with winter depression sometimes struggle more here than they did in Indiana, but the doctors are prepared for this.
Moved from Brazil to Sweden. Yeah, the darkness sucks but you adapt after a couple of winters. What really sucks much more getting a crappy winter with no snow and no sun, that's a soul killer.
It's far more likely they're referring to vitamin D supplements and SAD lamps than antidepressants, though I'm sure antidepressants are used when other things don't work.
Well, then don't take them. I'm pretty sure you aren't responsible for other folks' medical care, though, and that's between them and their doctor. It doesn't matter how you think they should be used if you aren't a professional treating folks - especially considering that not all mental illnesses resolve within a year or at all.
I'm from the Netherlands, and I'll never get used to it.
I don't care about the hour of more or less sleep, I don't even notice it nor do I ever suffer from jet lags.
It's the torturous period from roughly October to March where daylight roughly aligns with the workday or less. Meaning I drive in the dark to work, sit inside all day under artificial light, then drive back home in the dark. Months without daylight, and the little you get to experience is moody, not direct sun light.
The flip side is that we get ridiculous amounts of light in the summer. All the way up to 10:30 PM and even around midnight there's still a hint of faint light.
It's worth mentioning a satirical essay Benjamin Franklin wrote when he stayed in Paris as part of a diplomatic mission in which he basically chastises the citizens of Paris for not waking up with the sun.
Here is a quote of how he suggest to change their lazy manners:
"Every morning, as soon as the sun rises, let all the bells in every church be set ringing; and if that is not sufficient?, let cannon be fired in every street, to wake the sluggards effectually, and make them open their eyes to see their true interest."
To me it bears so much resemblance to people's imminent fear of having a late sunrise.
It will be funny to see what happens with Alaska, they might have just forgotten about the state
Same thing happened in Chile a while back, the entire country was left on "summer time" which then meant that the southern tip of Chile had very, very little sun during the winter during the mornings, the "proper day time" was notoriously "shifted"
When you're as far north as Alaska, daylight savings stops making sense, because the difference in daylight hours over the year is huge.
At Anchorage's latitude, two weeks after changing back to standard time, sunrise is back at the same time it was before the change, and mornings will get a lot darker until you reach midwinter.
In California, the effect of the change is noticeable, because the difference in daylight hours is small over the year, so people who have only ever lived in California or similar are the ones complaining about "having to go to school in the dark" as if that was some weird anomaly or tragedy.
What you're saying is completely irrelevant for people living closer to and above the arctic circle, because Daylight Savings does nothing at those latitudes anyway.
I remember a guide on a trip a number of years back telling that she rather liked the northern latitude (Alaska). In winter you're screwed anyway and in summer you have more light than you know what to do with. I'm sure an hour shift doesn't make things much different. Most of the people arguing are arguing around states where there is sort of enough light most of the year but some people like it earlier and some later.
I'm from the Netherlands as well, and I'm very scared of the talks of permanent DST over here. Which means that the sun would rise at 9:45 if we permanently switch to DST. Our country would be better suited at UTC, instead of UTC+1. Keeping it permanently at UTC+2 would be a special form of hell for me.
The subset of Americans in question doesn't have much in the way of big problems hence why this is getting a "the sky is falling" response rather than a "ok, whatever" response.
Some people will always try to downplay other people's success or misfortune then they stereotype them into a category that isn't themselves but it turns out to represent their unspoken views.
That just means that the problem gets worse as the latitude gets farther away from the equator. It may be pretty unavoidable in such places, but why make it pointlessly worse?
Not really a fair comparison, given that the Netherlands's latitude would put it in the Hudson Bay were it to be in North America. There are no major North American cities as far north as Amsterdam besides Anchorage.
Edmonton, AB is at a higher latitude than Amsterdam and has a larger population. Calgary’s latitude is similar and also has a larger population than Amsterdam.
Whether standard time or summer time is the better choice here is something I hold no opinion on, but the sheer hysteria some people here express is very overblown.