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The Germans don't really have any more right to it than she does. The most likely story of this bust is from the 5th century until the 18th or 19th centuries, it was buried in the ground somewhere in Italy or former Roman empire.

The person who dug it up and sold it didn't really have an inherent right to it. They just found it.

I say all this not from a legal perspective but from an inheritors of history and culture perspective. We all inherit humanity's history and culture.

While cheesy, Indiana Jones was right: "It belongs in a museum" so it is accessible to humanity. But is that museum inherently this German one?



> The Germans don't really have any more right to it than she does.

Article 56 of the Hague Convention of 1907 disagrees. Stealing art is a war crime. So do the Allies themselves, in their memorandum on January 5th, 1943.

> The most likely story of this bust is from the 5th century until the 18th or 19th centuries, it was buried in the ground somewhere in Italy or former Roman empire.

Given that the person depicted was originally associated with Drusus Germanicus (the name's a hint here) and Aschaffenburg was in fact part of the Roman Empire back in the day, chances are they found it in the vicinity. The object is a lot more related to Aschaffenburg than Texas, which in fact never was part of the Roman Empire.

> But is that museum inherently this German one?

The wartime looting of art and/or cultural objects is barbaric as it robs the object of its historical context and the regions of their heritage. This is true regardless of the uniform that the criminal wore. If you think Germans should hand back art stolen before or during WW2, you cannot really argue against restitution demands for art stolen by Americans.


I guess article 56 of the Hague convention does not apply to the British Museum?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_(cultural_propert...

It does, but international law doesn't work like national law. Who are you goig to sue? The British Museum? The United Kingdom? The Crown? Under whose jurisdiction? Sure, you can prove that the British Museum outright admits a given artefact's origin but how do you establish rightful ownership? It's not enough to prove that something was stolen, you also need to prove who the rightful owner would be, possibly generations after the initial theft.

And if the British Museum (or the Crown, or the UK) flat out says no, what are you going to do? The US infamously established that it will invade The Hague if any US citizen is ever put in front of the Human Rights tribunal, but even without such blatant threats it's difficult to coerce anyone under international law if their own nation refuses to comply. You can try to propose sanctions but there's no "international community", you just have a whole bunch of politicians representing different nations voting on things and they likely don't care about those artefacts enough to do anything especially things that would damage their already subdued economies.


No retrospective application. Hague convention 1907 predates ww2 postdated most acrimonious BM acquisition, noting they repatriate some things (human remains, religious and culturally sensitive objects) and not others (Elgin marbles, bought off the Turks, disputed by the greeks) and the Benin bronzes.


Well they certainly have lawyered up!


> If you think Germans should hand back art stolen before or during WW2, you cannot really argue against restitution demands for art stolen by Americans.

The Germans lost


> Stealing art is a war crime.

Is there anything that isn't a war crime at this point?

Declaring war? War crime.

Making a plan for war? War crime.

Deportation? War crime.

Blowing stuff up? War crime.

Stealing art? Believe it or not, also war crime.


>Declaring war?

not a war crime

>Making a plan for war?

not a war crime

>Deportation?

war crime.

>Blowing stuff up?

depends on what you blow up.

>Stealing art?

war crime.


> Declaring war?

> Making a plan for war?

These two are, on the stipulation that it's a war of aggression and not a defensive one.


Which is one of the reasons the US refuse to be subject to international tribunals on war crimes. No president would live to see their retirement as a free person.


Deportation is a war crime?



Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


Part of the former Roman empire includes Aschaffenburg (Germany)

The modern notion of either Germany or Italy doesn't fit into the context of this artefact. Both countries share a history with the Roman Empire - just like most of Europe does.


> The person who dug it up and sold it didn't really have an inherent right to it. They just found it.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't a person who found it have a right to it?


In most places, you don't. Even if the land is yours, the state has the ownership rights. You can get a decompensation so. Which sucks in cases were they find some roman ruins when digging the basement of your house... But then you can also find WW2 bombs were I live, luckily, they didn't find neither under our house.


Not Italy, but as an example, the legal process for the UK is described here:

https://www.gov.uk/treasure

I'd assume other European countries have similar laws and processes.


If I go and dig up a fresh grave right now and steal all the valuables, do I have a "right" to those?

How old does the grave, in your opinion, have to be for me to get that right?


If you travel to Pompeii right now, “find” a Roman vase and bring it home, did you have a right to it?




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