I know nothing about depression and even less about the "startup community", but I still think that this might be a good thread to throw in some of my thoughts, for what they're worth:
First, a little background...
In March, 2008, I attended my first Startup School. Even though I had been programming for many years, it was my first in-person exposure to the "startup community". It was incredible! For the first time in my life, I felt like I was immersed into the group of people with whom I belong. (The closest feeling I had before that was here at Hacker News.) Two great days talking about passionate things with like minded people! Then I got on the plane home and sat with 2 girls reading "People Magazine". All I could think was, "Welcome back to the real world."
Fast forward to today...
Sorry to say, I'm having trouble distinguishing our "community" from the "community" of those 2 girls. Sure, they were probably interested in celebrities while we're interested in technology & business, but the similarities are still striking: We're both often caught up in the latest fads, the "cool" stuff, what the fanboys are interested in, who got funded, who met with whom, who knows whom, where everyone's hanging out, etc., etc., etc. There are days when I come to Hacker News and have trouble finding a single reference to the most important thing: our customers.
I became interested in building digital things because it was such an incredibly cool way to provide for others. I still feel that way.
Whenever I start thinking about the "startup community" and all the details we mistake for issues, it's no wonder people get depressed. Sometimes we just lose our way.
But whenever I start thinking about my customers, what they need, why they need it, and how cool it is to help them get it, it's almost impossible to get depressed.
If you think you're getting depressed because of all the distracting details, find someone who needs something, focus on them instead of yourself, and build something.
Just a thought from an unqualified observer too busy and having too much fun to get depressed.
Suicidal depression rarely has anything to do with how much fun you're having. It's an illness. You can't pushup your way out of cancer, jog your way out of MS, and you can't fun your way out of real depression.
You make several good points, but let's not trivialize mental illness. I doubt (a lot) that it's something endemic or "taboo" among startups, but any time we can make any group of people more aware of the signs and symptoms of clinical depression, let's do that.
(Lost several friends, one of them close, to suicide).
The worst part of depression is a sortof profound loneliness. This is the feeling that ends up leading a lot of people towards suicide. There's nobody that "gets" them, and nobody that they can talk to about what they're feeling. They feel isolated from their friends and family, and this feeling is exaggerated by people who don't understand that they are suffering from a neurochecmial/neurophysiological deficiency; not from something that they can just "push through".
Imagine telling somebody with cancer that they just have to wake up one day and decide they don't have cancer anymore.
What makes all of this worse is the feeling that what you're going through is somehow invalid. Not only are you suffering from the worst kind of emotional pain and loneliness imaginable, but you're being told that you're a fool for it, and that you're a failure or a weakling for not being able to snap out of it.
That's dangerous.
You know...a lot of my family members are pilots. Part of the training that they go through, something that seems to be constantly drilled into them, is to watch out for hypoxia. This is what happens when you're flying too high without supplemental oxygen, and your body starts malfunctioning. You sound like you're drunk. (This is what hypoxia sounds like, it's terrifying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IqWal_EmBg).
This is recognized as a dangerous part of the job, something to monitor yourself for.
I think that hackers need to keep in mind that depression is kindof our hypoxia. It can sneak up on us, and it can kill us if we don't address it.
And there is nothing wrong or weak about being depressed, just like there is nothing wrong or weak about being hypoxic.
is a very very good lecture by Professor Robert Sapolsky on depression, major depression, and why it isn't really something that you can just tough out. Highly recommended.
As far as I know, the standard treatment for depression is medication to provide a short term fix (thereby convincing the patient that the therapist can help) and cognitive behavioral therapy as a long term fix.
As I understand it, CBT is basically teaching the depressed person how to "fun" (or stress manage/expectation manage) their way out of depression.
In any case, I believe the distinction between "illness" and "not an illness" is usually not very important - it's usually an attempt to appeal to medical authorities rather than address fundamentally social and ethical issues.
There is no "standard" treatment for depression as a whole.
There are different types of depression, with different treatments. I know one person who will probably be on medication for her whole life (bipolar), another who needed medication for about a year and found therapy to be a waste of time (postpartum), and some for whom therapy was the primary treatment.
I'm sorry but I take issue with your tone. I've been on around 4 antidepressants since reaching adulthood and I've dome (I'm still somewhat still doing) CBT. I'm fine now without further treatment but while I was being treated I must say that the pills work. Some more than others. Some people need them forever and some don't. The point of taking them is to get you motivated and just functional enough to start working out the cause. In my case they gave me just enough energy to get slightly involved in a few things. Those things then snowballed to the point where I didn't need the pills and had other outlets. I still am prone to be depressed far easier and more often than most but the treatment got me to a point where I have the tools lift myself out of it each time despite the fact that depression really is totally crippling and makes you believe there is no solution.
I still go to CBT though not often just because I really enjoy it and I get a lot out of it. Even the therapist agrees I'd be fine without it but it makes me happy so I go once or twice a month.
Depression is an illness just like addiction or diabetes. I mention addiction because that's another one people like to write off as a moral failing or something that just isn't a real illness.
I could be misunderstanding your point but my experience tells me you're wrong on this.
I'm sorry you dislike my tone. But do you disagree with any of the factual claims I made? If so, which one?
From your comment, it sounds as if pills motivated you to try CBT, and then you lifted yourself out of it (via fun or other methods). I.e., you underwent the exact process I described - pills make you happier short term, therapist taught you to solve your own problems long term.
I'm also glad that you've also discovered CBT is an enjoyable hobby.
Depression is an illness just like addiction or diabetes. I mention addiction because that's another one people like to write off as a moral failing or something that just isn't a real illness.
Why do you feel that being an illness and being a moral failing are mutually exclusive?
Try reading the lesswrong link I posted. The gist of it is that the label "disease" describes a collection of heterogeneous objects, and drawing implications by analogy to some objects in the collection (e.g. cancer) can give misleading results when applied to other objects in the collection (e.g., drug addiction).
Similarly, this claim is an example of the same logical fallacy: "A penguin is a bird, just like a pigeon, therefore it can fly."
Maybe you don't mean it, but I also hear a contemptuous tone when you describe CBT as "funning" your way out of depression, or when you call Bill's CBT an enjoyable hobby.
(CBT is an enjoyable hobby, I still get mileage out of rereading Seligman's Learned Optimism (which is CBT based). But, being condescending and being factually accurate are not mutually exclusive either.)
"As I understand it, CBT is basically teaching the depressed person how to "fun" (or stress manage/expectation manage) their way out of depression."
Most people would not describe "stress management" or "expectation management" as "fun"
CBT is not about fun. It often involves journaling (challenging irrationally negative thoughts). It's also certainly not positive thinking. Far from it. It's focused, rational, balanced thinking. Then again, on HN maybe careful, logical thinking is considered fun.
On a lighter note, for some people (not me), CBT is fun. But it's a different kind of CBT. I have a hard time not laughing when a psychologist says she's a practitioner of CBT. (If you're unfamiliar with what I am talking about Google CBT. Prepare to see some seriously NSFW cringeworthy images).
The thing I really didn't like was how you used the word "fun" as if to minimize the seriousness of the problem. In fact, it came off to me as if you were minimizing the seriousness of depression in general. I could have just taken it that way without you meaning it like that.
Your comment about pills also came off as if to say its not a valid solution. Like maybe pills are somehow for the weak or lazy.
Honestly, I just really detected a lot of snark in that comment and in this one and I don't know why. You just called my participation in CBT "an enjoyable hobby" like a backhanded compliment. I wouldn't call it a hobby at all.
Maybe if you want to get technical and argue semantics a moral failing and disease may not be mutually exclusive. But we're talking about the real world. As it applies to depression and addiction, disease and moral failing are mutually exclusive. People are looked down upon and carry a stigma because so many people want to call it a moral failing. They say "just snap out of it" for depression and they call addicts weak people when the reality is so far from being so black and white.
Everyone can pull out studies to discredit the other guy's study that he pulled out. Let's be real when we talk about this stuff and not hide behind studies. Researchers disagree all the time so the best we can do is use our own experience, best judgement, and widely accepted truths to argue our points.
At the end of the day I took less issue with your facts than your ton. It just sounded demeaning and like you were minimizing the seriousness of this stuff. Plus there was a bit of snark detected. I don't think I was the only one either. That's all, this isn't a personal attack, man. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You said you "...still go to CBT...just because I really enjoy it...Even the therapist agrees I'd be fine without it...". If you don't call such an activity a hobby, what would you call it?
Maybe if you want to get technical and argue semantics a moral failing and disease may not be mutually exclusive. But we're talking about the real world. As it applies to depression and addiction, disease and moral failing are mutually exclusive.
If you wish to argue that they are not "moral failings", then make such an argument. Define your morality explain why addiction to drugs does not meet your criteria for immorality.
For example, I'd argue thusly: "I believe an action is only immoral if it harms another person against their will. Drug addiction/depression does not do this, hence the choice to use and become addicted to drugs is not a moral failing."
Don't try to confuse people with logically invalid argument such as "it's an illness, not a moral failing". That's as logically invalid as arguing "penguins are birds, and therefore can fly."
I'm not really arguing. Seems like someone is looking to start a fight. I saw a comment that seemed to belittle the depressed and minimize the seriousness of the problem as well as a veiled mockery of CBT.
I don't really know what you mean by moral failing. To morally failyou have to start doing something that is immoral, like killing kitten or something
Just out of curiosity (I don't really know what the answer is because I don't have depression), but do you think it's impossible for a person to become depressed due to being weak or having a weak character?
Could for example being a loser make your life difficult and lead to depression?
Now I understand "loser" is kind of a meaningless term, but I'm just using it as an illustrative example.
Say for a particular set of reasons (having to due with your character/personality) everyone around you always teases you. Couldn't that lead to depression; and if you were that kind of person, wouldn't addressing what makes you a "loser" be the correct way ultimately to deal with your depression.
Or is depression never caused by problems with one's own personality/character?
Your point about being a loser is exactly the kind of thing that hurts people more than helps them. Don't get me wrong, I get your point and the way you put it really makes sense. Yes, I'm sure failing can lead to depression and I have no doubt that it happens. But consider this.
Very often the very thing that creates a "loser" is not a personal failing but actually a symptom of depression. People will fly off the handle on me for not citing a study but it's the best I've got right now. I'll take my own case. From birth I was as happy and normal as anyone. Smart as anything, lots of success, and so on. Suddenly depression comes out of nowhere. The symptoms of depression brought me to a point where I could no longer work, study, or do anything really. It also led me to self medicate and become an addict. That's the point where my situation fed my depression and made it worse much like you describe.
Stories like this are very common from the depressed. Everyone fails at some point but that failure doesn't always lead to depression. People just pick up the pieces and move on.
So while what you say could likely be true for some, it's most likely not true for most NAND even if it is, that line of thought prevents people from seeking the help they need soon enough if at all. They come to think that they are flawed and weak which then feeds the depression beast and on top of it they believe that they can somehow snap themselves out of it and become "strong" by sheer will power.
Your comment also implies that there's no difference between situational depression and other forms of the disease. You could also read it as saying depression is the same as being really really sad. I know you didn't mean it that way and I can't blame you for it. Honestly, people who haven't been there will have thoughts like these. That's why I always argue for more education and it's why the professionals keep shoving the "it's a disease" line down our throats. Because people who don't have the experience are inadvertently doing harm to those who need help.
And you're right, I might have been just a touch sensitive. It's not that I take it personally. It's just that having seen myself and others in that situation I know that they'd cringe for fear that some poor soul will take it to heart and actually try to will their way out of it instead of seeking help.
>I doubt (a lot) that it's something endemic or "taboo" among startups, but any time we can make any group of people more aware of the signs and symptoms of clinical depression, let's do that.
Indeed. Also keep in mind the symptoms can be extremely subtle, likely suppressed due to shame, and potentially impossible to notice without some active probing, accidental or otherwise. Ilya's recent suicide that seemed to take everyone by surprise was a reminder of that.
Brings to mind the saying, 'Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.' Some moreso than others.
Indeed, the problem of depression is precisely that the activities that used to be fun are no longer fun. Depression is a lot more complex and a lot harder to fix that just saying "get out and have fun".
I don't think edw519 was trivializing mental illness as much as pointing out similarities that might lead to (non suicidal) depression in people. There are definitely similarities to the blue moods that would be part of the girls reading "People" and aspiring to be someone that they are never going to be compared with hackers(say luck, skill, brains vs. looks, weight luck etc.)
Or being accepted or not accepted by the group. Something HN manages to accomplish by the whole voting system that keeps many in line with the group think and desire to be popular or gain karma and avoid down voted comments.
Sidebar: It's funny how on HN someone who makes what people think is a stupid comment (who may suffer from depression for all you know) gets no compassion at all and gets downvoted and marginalized. Someone who posts a blog post and cries out for help though get's plenty of attention and up votes and all the sudden everyone is nice and bending over backwards to say "don't give up" what can we do to help?
I really don't understand any of this comment but for what it's worth I don't think Ed was trying to trivialize anyone; I just think that his comment merited a clarification. Ed knows it's all love with me.
That's a put down and dismissive. "Any" is a pretty absolute word. Perhaps "some" would have been better. Let me know if there is anything you would like clarification on.
"You make several good points, but let's not trivialize mental illness"
To me that statement is saying that Ed is trivializing mental illness.
I'm not interested in using a discussion about depression among startup founders as a coat rack for a debate about "group think" and the merits of the HN karma system. You can feel free to the last word here.
> Sure, they were probably interested in celebrities while we're interested in technology & business, but the similarities are still striking....
I'd relate the start-up community to the celebriy community in this way:
In both communities there are those who have succeeded: Celebrities and Startup Founders with an exit.
There are those who want to do: People who move to Hollywood, and people who move to Silicon valley.
And there are finally those who only watch others doing: People who only read People Magazine, and People who only read Techcrunch.
The girls you saw were the last bit but HN is something akin to an industry journal/forum---we have a greater mix of the first two bodies: the doers. So when an article on HN appears about depression in the startup community, I instantly think of people who have their own startup, work 12 hours aday, and pour their savings into building a product based on a dream. These guys are nothing like a passive watcher, and the causes of their depression ought to be far different from merely mistaking 'details for issues'.
> But whenever I start thinking about my customers, what they need, why they need it, and how cool it is to help them get it, it's almost impossible to get depressed.
I noticed you omitted how-much-the-customers-will-pay-for-the-product from your list.
Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so.
The only chance is to treat, not happiness, but some end external to it
as the purpose of life. Let your self-consciousness, your scrutiny,
your self-interrogation exhaust themselves on that."
A wrinkle on serving customers as this purpose is that they pay you. So... are you serving them, or making money? Being a servant of two masters is tricky (e.g. who is served by "raising prices"?). A resolution is to elevate one as the master, which prevails when they conflict. Also customers can be fickle (like those 2 communities), not knowing what they want. So, yet another purpose is to make something great, according to your ideals (if others like it, so much the better...). This is not other-directed, but at least not self-directed.
I get the sentiment and I'm glad youve found your passion but I most definitely see that you're right when you say you know nothing of depression and the startup community.
Not to knock you at all but depression is one of those things that you can only "get" if you've experienced it. Like sex or love or being a billionaire. It's almost indescribable. I've been to the depths of it and back.
Imagine the worst sadness you've ever felt in your entire life. Multiply that by 2. Then add in a feeling of loneliness. The kind of loneliness where you feel like a man with no home, no family, no friends, and strangers hate you. Then your own mind turns against you. All logic is gone and your inner voice is on an infinite loop telling you that there is no way out, things always have and always will be this way, that you are not exactly worthless but worth less than any person you know including strangers on the street (yeah, that includes the homeless and destitute). Now that you imagine feeling this way you also must imagine taking every ounce of energy you have and throwing it away. You have no energy, you're constantly tired, and your body even aches as if you were sick at times! The worst part of all is that these negative thoughts and feelings feed on each other, digging you deeper and deeper into depression.
People in that state will do anything they can to make it stop. Drug abuse/self medication is very common along with suicide. When you're depressed you can't see that there's a way to gradually make your life better so you reach for instant gratification. The instant gratification only leads to more problems. It's such a vicious cycle that you just wouldn't believe.
So I'm a person who's been affected by deep depression and it's consequences and I'm also just about to reach my first anniversary of being in business. Startup depression has hit me hard twice in this past year (most likely because I'm more prone to it).
So after my long rambling rant I'll get to the point: there are no easy answers but one thing that will help out people suffering from this is just to talk about it publicly. There are far more people suffering than we know about. Whenever I see a post on startup depression I have the exact opposite reaction to when I see yet another post about how someone loves Emacs. I think "thank god! I'm not the only one!". Just talking about it is a big relief to people because they know they're not alone and can learn or help each other. There will never be enough posts about startup depression. Ever.
An excellent description of severe depression. I wonder how many people who have never experienced a depression episode will manage to have empathy for it, though.
I say this because now that I'm on the path to recovery, it seems I can recognize all aspects of your description based on my memories but I can't comprehend my memories as a personal experience any more. It's almost as though I'm trying to access a memory written for an incompatible mental model (like trying to load an old version of file into newer software). In a way this makes perfect sense because what CBT did was restructure my mental model of the world.
It also seems give me a useful way to understand why healthy people struggle so much to understand depression - the underlying causes (chemical imbalance; dysfunctional thought processes) are incompatible with their way of reasoning about the world.
I completely agree that being open about one's difficulties is crucial to recovery and living a healthier mental life. It's unfortunate how many apparently depressed people I know in my field who identify with applying the concepts I've explained to them (from CBT), but the second they find out the book I recommend to learn more ("Feeling Good" by David Burns) is about "depression", they ALL lose interest. (I understand this, though, because I was the same until I reached a point where I had to do something about my depression or risk serious consequences.)
I totally empathize. It's the same for me. I remember the experience just enough to describe it but at the same time it's almost like it was happening to a different person. I can feel other memories of times I was happy or in love or what have you (though admittedly less intensely) but the memories of depression are just different.
There are a lot of things in life you can't understand until you experience it and so the best we can do is teach others empathy and just educate them as best we can on what we go through, why it comes about, and possible treatments as well as how to not treat a depressed person like they're somehow handicapped but instead just ill. Ignorance is what drives the prejudice and the "just snap out of it, you pussy" type of comments.
Great book recommendation too! I read that book when I first sought help and it's really spot on. Most psychiatric professionals recommend it and I would argue that it's the gold standard of self help books for depression. I don't even like to call it self help though. It's really partly self help exercises mixed in with education. It's definitely not pop psychology and is based completely on solid science. Maybe people you recommend it to think its another pop psy book full of pseudoscience. It gets updated pretty frequently too. Great book.
First, a little background...
In March, 2008, I attended my first Startup School. Even though I had been programming for many years, it was my first in-person exposure to the "startup community". It was incredible! For the first time in my life, I felt like I was immersed into the group of people with whom I belong. (The closest feeling I had before that was here at Hacker News.) Two great days talking about passionate things with like minded people! Then I got on the plane home and sat with 2 girls reading "People Magazine". All I could think was, "Welcome back to the real world."
Fast forward to today...
Sorry to say, I'm having trouble distinguishing our "community" from the "community" of those 2 girls. Sure, they were probably interested in celebrities while we're interested in technology & business, but the similarities are still striking: We're both often caught up in the latest fads, the "cool" stuff, what the fanboys are interested in, who got funded, who met with whom, who knows whom, where everyone's hanging out, etc., etc., etc. There are days when I come to Hacker News and have trouble finding a single reference to the most important thing: our customers.
I became interested in building digital things because it was such an incredibly cool way to provide for others. I still feel that way.
Whenever I start thinking about the "startup community" and all the details we mistake for issues, it's no wonder people get depressed. Sometimes we just lose our way.
But whenever I start thinking about my customers, what they need, why they need it, and how cool it is to help them get it, it's almost impossible to get depressed.
If you think you're getting depressed because of all the distracting details, find someone who needs something, focus on them instead of yourself, and build something.
Just a thought from an unqualified observer too busy and having too much fun to get depressed.