> best approximation of the rational mind attempting to figure out an escape from a consistently negative situation under conditions of very limited information about alternatives
I dislike this phrasing, because it implies things can always get better if only the suicidal person were a bit less ignorant. The reality is there are countless situations from which the entire rest of your life is 99.9999% guaranteed to constitute of a highly lopsided ratio of suffering to joy. An obvious example are diseases/disabilities in which pain is severe, constant, and quality of life is permanently diminished. Short of hoping for a miracle cure to be discovered, there is no alternative and it is perfectly rational to conclude that there is no purpose to continuing to live in that circumstance, provided the person in question lives with their own happiness as a motivating factor.
Less extreme conditions than disability can also lead to this, where it's possible things can get better but there's still a high degree of uncertainty around it. For example, if there's a 30% chance that after suffering miserably for 10 years your life will get better, and a 70% chance you will continue to suffer, is it irrational to commit suicide? I wouldn't say so.
And so, when we start talking about suicide on the scale of millions of people ideating, I think there's a bit of folly in assuming that these people can be "fixed" by talking to them better. What would actually make people less suicidal is not being talked out of it, but an improvement to their quality of life, or at least hope for a future improvement in quality of life. That hope is hard to come by for many. In my estimation there are numerous societies in which living conditions are rapidly deteriorating, and at some point there will have to be a reckoning with the fact that rational minds conclude suicide is the way out when the alternatives are worse.
Thank you for this comment, it highlights something that I've felt that needed to be said but is often suppressed because people don't like the ultimate conclusion that occurs if you try to reason about it.
A person considering suicide is often just in a terrible situation that can't be improved. While disease etc. are factors that are outside of humanity's control, other situations like being saddled with debt, unjust accusations that people feel that they cannot be recused of (e.g. Aaron Swartz) are systemic issues that one person cannot fight alone. You would see that people are very willing to say that "help is available" or some such when said person speaks about contemplating suicide, but very few people would be willing to solve someones debt issues or providing legal help, as the case may be that is the factor behind one's suicidal thoughts. At best, all you might get is a pep talk about being hopeful and how better days might come along magically.
In such cases, from the perspective of the individual, it is not entirely unreasonable to want to end it. However, once it comes to that, walking back the reasoning chain leads to the fact that people and society has failed them, and therefore it is just better to apply a label on that person that they were "mental ill" or "arrogant" and could not see a better way.
A few days ago I heard about a man who attempted suicide. It's not even an extreme case of disease or anything like that. It's just that he is over 70 (around 72, I think), with his wife in the process of divorcing him, and no children.
Even though I am lucky to be a happy person that enjoys life, I find it difficult to argue that he shouldn't suicide. At that age he's going to see his health declining, it's not going to get better in that respect. He is losing his wife who was probably what gave his life meaning. It's too late for most people to meet someone new. Is life really going to give him more joy than suffering? Very unlikely. I suppose he should still hang on if he loves his wife because his suicide would be a trauma for her, but if the divorce is bitter and he doesn't care... honestly I don't know if I could sincerely argue for him not to do it.
The question is not whether joy can be experienced, but whether the ratio of joy to suffering is enough to justify a desire to continue to put up with the suffering. Suppose a divorced 70-year-old is nearly blind and his heart is failing. He has no retirement fund. To survive, he does physical labour that his body can't keep up with for a couple of hours per day, and then sleeps for the rest of the day, worn down and exhausted. Given how little he is capable of working per day, he must work 7 days per week to make ends meet. He has no support network. He does not have the energy to spend on hobbies like reading, let alone physical activity like walking, and forget about travel.
I am describing someone I knew myself. He did not commit suicide, but he was certainly waiting for death to come to him. I don't think anything about his situation was rare. Undoubtedly, he was one of many millions who have experienced something similar.
The question they posited was "Is life really going to give him more joy than suffering?" not "Will he be able to find any joy at all"? They noted how things like declining health can plague the elderly, so I thought I'd relate a real-world case illustrating exactly how failing health and other difficulties can manifest in a way that the joy does not outweigh the suffering. The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering.
>The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering.
I should just assume things that aren't there, rather than expect a commenter to provide a substantive argument? OK.
This is the part people don't like to talk about. We just brand people as "mentally ill" and suddenly we no longer need to consider if they're acting rationally or not.
Life can be immensely difficult. I'm very skeptical that giving people AI would meaningfully change existing dynamics.
I dislike this phrasing, because it implies things can always get better if only the suicidal person were a bit less ignorant. The reality is there are countless situations from which the entire rest of your life is 99.9999% guaranteed to constitute of a highly lopsided ratio of suffering to joy. An obvious example are diseases/disabilities in which pain is severe, constant, and quality of life is permanently diminished. Short of hoping for a miracle cure to be discovered, there is no alternative and it is perfectly rational to conclude that there is no purpose to continuing to live in that circumstance, provided the person in question lives with their own happiness as a motivating factor.
Less extreme conditions than disability can also lead to this, where it's possible things can get better but there's still a high degree of uncertainty around it. For example, if there's a 30% chance that after suffering miserably for 10 years your life will get better, and a 70% chance you will continue to suffer, is it irrational to commit suicide? I wouldn't say so.
And so, when we start talking about suicide on the scale of millions of people ideating, I think there's a bit of folly in assuming that these people can be "fixed" by talking to them better. What would actually make people less suicidal is not being talked out of it, but an improvement to their quality of life, or at least hope for a future improvement in quality of life. That hope is hard to come by for many. In my estimation there are numerous societies in which living conditions are rapidly deteriorating, and at some point there will have to be a reckoning with the fact that rational minds conclude suicide is the way out when the alternatives are worse.