The only people who would need such a service are people who are completely technologically illiterate and only know of the Firefox brand, and those people may not be informed enough to know that it's free.
Dell needs to weigh the gain of a small amount of money with the price of losing their integrity and consumer trust.
I wasn't aware any PC manufacturers had integrity or consumer trust left, the least of which being Dell. Have you fired up a newly shipped Dell PC lately? It's a cesspool of crapware. No less than a dozen Dell Utilities, "anti-virus", media players, etc.
Don't worry though, they'd be happy to work on your "slow" computer if you purchase the support add-on.
Dell, Lenovo, Sony have all offered options for "Clean Install of Windows 7/8" for as long as I remember. And without charge, mostly, despite the discounted pricing the manufacturer could offer by virtue of the "partnerships".
"No less than a dozen Dell utilities" - you mean, like to customize LED colors, change function key behavior?
Yeah. When I bought a Dell a couple of years back, I checked my options carefully and the only crapware it came was McAfee (which, I mean, I'd rather they ship a crap antivirus program by default than leave most customers with no malware protection at all).
Indeed, last time I bought a name brand computer (my Lenovo Laptop) I was really disappointed to find how much crap was installed on it. I ended up formatting and re-installing :/
Pretty much all consumer PCs are that way. Do a clean OS reinstall out of the box. Unfortunately most consumer PCs don't ship with the media needed to do this.
And I trust the reinstall program that lives on the same system with this crapware why? I want a fresh install from Microsoft-signed media, not the crapware re-installing itself while it wipes all user-data.
In the immortal words of Ellen Ripley: Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
I have a great Dell Latitude E6320. 8G RAM, i5 Sandy Bridge and 250GB HDD. It's basically a tank with Magnesium and Aluminum. It fell from 1.6m right on its VGA connector which was pushed inside, but still works.
First thing I did was installing Ubuntu, though. Same as my desktop Dell.
PS: It's the only computer that gets WiFi while all others find it too weak of a signal. I'm online while all my friends shut their laptops.
I bought a laptop 4 years ago (Dell Studio 17) and I was actually quite impressed with the lack of bloat on it. It was pretty much just the Dell software that you'd expect, and nothing else.
4 years ago wasn't that long ago, I hope nothing has changed...
One might buy the computer as a present and want to surprise the gifted with Firefox already installed. Presents don't look that good unwrapped, so as they cannot install it themselves the only option left is to pay Dell to do it.
No offense, but you're stretching credulity here. Even better, if you're giving a gift of a Dell computer, help the person you're giving it to to install Firefox after the fact and show them what wonderful free software is out there on the internet.
> The only people who would need such a service are people who are completely technologically illiterate and only know of the Firefox brand, and those people may not be informed enough to know that it's free.
Not really, I can think of a use case where an office has a policy that requires everyone to be using Firefox. Now, say they need to buy a hundred new PCs from Dell. Wouldn't it be time consuming and costly to install Firefox on each PC one by one? In this case, paying for this service could make sense.
I use to work for a small OEM that primarily serviced local (quarter of the state or so) school districts and small businesses. Often the customers would request that we flash the computers with an image that they provided. Basically meant that we could go to the school in the evening, install the computers in all the different computer labs, and the next morning those computers would boot and be ready to go.
Obviously there was a good deal of trust required there, but for organizations with moderately sized computer orders (10 to 300 typically) but small IT staffs, it made a lot of sense. Larger schools typically requested the machines with clean images which would be promptly wiped by their staff.
> If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee, or tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service, or the collection of personal information.
Specifically the "By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee" part.
The problem is that Mozilla's policy applies to distribution but not necessarily to installation. Since this is a legal issue, the details are very important.
In this case, the process of ensuring that a functioning version of Firefox resides on the machine involves:
1. Transferring the Firefox software to the machine
2. Explicitly preparing the machine so that the Firefox software can be run (in this case, installing Firefox)
The Policy only applies to the first item. No part of the policy refers to the second action, and it's fair game for Dell to charge a fee for the labor associated with installing the software (they cannot, of course, charge a fee for the part of the process where the software is distributed to the machine).
If this sounds like nitpicking, welcome to the world of law
I would be willing to bet that they aren't running an installer on each person's machine, though. If they created multiple disk images - one with FF, one without - and are charging to use the one with FF, then it looks like they're charging for distribution.
If they really did create two sets of disk images based on presence of Firefox, Dell could argue that the price is not for the software but for other differences between the disk images.
Note that I'm not arguing about the spirit of the actions, but merely about whether Mozilla actually has a case here
Does one have to physically run an executable and click through the process to have “installed” software? The software is distributed in a different state to the installed state.
On the other hand, the only mention of trademarks in the license is:
> This License does not grant any rights in the trademarks, service marks, or logos of any Contributor
This is unfortunately worded in Dell's favour, as any trademark policy from Mozilla will stand independently from the license. Furthermore, Dell is allowed to use Mozilla's trademark in a fair way, regardless of what their own policies say.
No. The original article claimed that too, but there’s absolutely no way that interpretation would hold up in court.
Lawyer goes to mozilla.com, clicks Download. “By the plaintiff’s interpretation, as they have distributed the product to me, I now have an installed Firefox. Let’s go to the Start Menu and attempt to run it. Wait, hmm, I see no menu icons. Let’s look on the filesystem. Hmm, no folder. Oh, I see, there’s this additional step beyond distribution that I have to take to be able to use the product. What’s that additional step called? Installation. What do we call it when someone does something for us so that we don’t have to do it? A Service. Thank you, Your Hono(u)r (this is the UK after all, though it’d be M’Lord).”
Might be dick-ish (subjectively). But the Mozilla claims that it’s clearly not allowed by their license or trademark (which implies no association), and the repetition of same by the article (and by numerous in the peanut gallery online) does not make it so - Dell’s response is correct.
Doesn't the purchasing a service part explicitly say Dell isn't allowed to do this? Am I reading this wrong somehow or are they just blatantly breaking the rules?
I know people who get paid by their friends for help setting up computers - often reformatting/reinstalling after malware infections - and I'd guess many of them would be installing Firefox for them too. Does it mean they can't do that according to Mozilla if they charge for the services? Dell gets picked on here, but I bet they're not the only ones who charge to install free software like Firefox.
It's totally fine for anyone to charge to install Firefox -- the software is open source. They cannot advertise their services as a Mozilla Firefox Install Service -- Mozilla's trademark is not free. At the very least, you would have to be very clear that you are not affiliated with Mozilla in any way.
It's pretty clear (to me - IANAL) that Dell is using Mozilla's trademark without their permission. If they called it Open Source Pre-Install Service, and explained that it includes Mozilla Firefox and some other software, I think it would be fine.
You are reading it wrong. The -distribution- of the software isn’t tied to the purchase of a service. Dell isn’t charging to put Firefox-setup.exe in your Downloads folder. They’re charging to install it.
Granted, I think charging $18 to install a browser is entirely dickish behavior, but the legal nuances of ‘distribution’ versus ‘installation’ are neither subtle nor vague.
I don't want to take away from your argument, I agree with you 100%, but according to the article it's £16.26 or $27.18, so it's even worse than your $18. It's a ripoff and maybe they could be subject to fraud charges instead :p
Yes, buy enterprise-class hardware (Latitude, etc.) instead of the consumer brands (Inspiron, etc.)
Dell also has a program for large enough IT departments where they'll use a buyer-provided disk image at the factory so machines can be deployed right out of the box.
Not Dell, but the retail store where you got it. Most (Wal-Mart, OfficeMax/Depot, Best Buy) have their "Service plans" which is pretty much paying to get rid of misc software. Retailers gotta love that extra profit while the employees get a nice SPIF.
When it comes to McAffee and Symantec I don't trust a regular uninstall. Until I do a clean install of the OS the machine is forever unclean (any fans of "The League" out there?)
> ...the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be ... tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service
No it's not. £16.25 British Pound Sterling equals $27.17 US Dollar.
So prices are almost identical and actually you could say Geeksquad has the better deal because they say they will install any software ("3-D imaging" programs and such which could have an install that is actually more involved than hitting next 4 times).
You're right. When I said "it's cheaper" I was looking at the online chat one that's $40, and revised my comment to choose the cheaper option without editing the direct price comparison.
Realistically, though, the cost of the service wasn't my point. Rather, it's that paying someone to install software for you is not unprecedented and completely legal. It may be a loophole that toes the line, sure, but toeing the line is not equivalent to crossing it.
On one hand, Dell seems to think there is a market of people willing to pay to install Firefox. Whoever conducted that research probably found people trusting Firefox than IE or Chrome or Opera. That's just my guess. I have heard people saying "web download is broken. You first have to use some browser like Chrome or IE to install Firefox, but what if that IE version is compromised? What if people click on the wrong mozilla.org by googling and instead installed a malicious, modified Mozilla firefox?" Maybe Dell read HNs and thought "yeah let's help the poor souls out there!" (http://noncombatant.org/2014/03/03/downloading-software-safe...)
On the other hand, this charging practice is ridiculous. I can understand some people are not technical at all (espeically the elders and new computer users), but come on, this is a ripe off. If you already created a custom image to load into every hard drive you sell to your customer, modify that image by adding Firefox. How much effort is that, Dell?
edit:
Does Dell's installation bundles with third-party addons? Remember the old toolbar spam? It would be interesting one day Dell decides to sell Tor installation service.
It would not solve the authentication problem, but you can use command line ftp to download Firefox from a new installation, assuming it's available or can be installed with Windows setup.
Start command prompt. Enter
ftp ftp.mozilla.org
ftp
ftp
cd /pub/firefox/releases/latest/win32/en-US/
get "Firefox Setup 27.0.1.exe"
There is a stub installer in the same directory, which will download the full package and install it, if you prefer.
When the software comes with the computer, you can turn around and complain to Dell about the software. There is someone you can call, and generally it's rolled into the phone support contract.
When the software is installed afterwards, you don't have the same ease of complaining. Dell can argue that Firefox somehow messed up your computer.
That is a convenience many people are willing to pay for. Whether they would pay the 16£ is a different question
Sure, but who's next on this service installation?
I also want to make an analogy of asking Dell to upgrade 2GB to 4GB or to 8GB. I don't know how much an upgrade cost now, but a few years back it was about $20-$40? It was worth it to upgrade a hardware, not quite sure how it plays out asking Dell to install Firefox at ~$27 USD. Also consider Firefox upgrades every few months; things going to break, I don't know if Dell is ready to do GOOD support, or just one of those "have you tried power off and restart your computer?" This is also something Mozilla might need to look at as SUMO can get pretty overwhelming. The web is sometimes too technical to debug :(
To remove the contention, Dell should make the fee appear for "additional software" even though FF is the only option. This will make it clear you are paying for the installation of additional software and not FF directly. And when they add another piece of additional software, I fully expect Dell won't include a separate charge since it's for "changing the stock image".
On a side note, is this not automated? Is the installation of FF really done by a human? And if not, how is this different than a Ticketmaster-esque because-we-can fee?
> “Dell Configuration Services, including the application loading service, ensure customers have a complete, ready to use product when it arrives,”
How do they not get it this badly? Customers expect a complete and usable product just by purchasing it. Paying extra to ensure it is "ready and usable," is nonsense. Is this really what Dell thinks their customers want?
Honestly I would rather Dell try to charge me to install extra crap than install it without asking/charging on the assumption that I want it (or more accurately, on the assumption that I won't be annoyed enough by it to pick a different vendor in the future).
My point was that if they consider their installation service something that makes their product "ready and usable," then it should not be an optional charge.
(And in the end, isn't it just choosing a different disk image in their configuration system? Hardly a 'service.')
I would want Dell to sell me a computer that they would be happy and proud to use themselves. Not try to fill up my shopping cart with optional extras, deals, and crap.
Dell needs to weigh the gain of a small amount of money with the price of losing their integrity and consumer trust.