I've seen others knock down this report already, but I'm having trouble finding a link. What those other articles noted is that this is US-only, online-only sales (and I believe from people who opted in to provide this data). Apple sells a lot of iPads at their own stores, and certainly outside of the US.
Ahh, here's one of the sites that did a take down of this report:
The knock against this this is that it's a very clickbaity title. If it's true, it's a big deal, but the title made it to be a BIGGER deal by implying it's all sales. Which would be huge, but also absurd.
The idea that Surface is selling well should be taken away even if the article is clickbaity. By all accounts, MS is hitting supply walls with Skylake before they meet demand or cross some sort of arbitrary sales goal they want to maintain [0]. They're sold out everywhere and backordered on the SP4 and SB. I'm glad I pre-ordered!
And the MS devkit? It's.. um.. I mean I know that people will be shocked to hear it but it's not only really damn good these days, but it's open source. Look at how you do Async programming on Windows Phone with C# or JavaScript, and what kinda performance gains you get. Check out the MS GitHub and see how much of themselves they've put out there and opened to the community.
It's a big deal. I'm actually enthusiastic to join their dev community.
C#, F#, JavaScript, TypeScript, and their development toolchain. Every Surface Book ships with in-the-box high performance virtualization (although Linux support for being a client OS for high performance networking is a bit spotty).
They're doing things like demoing debugging C# executables running inside docker containers on Linux, from Visual Studio in the host Win10 VM.
Additional heresy incoming: Powershell is extremely good as well, although a very different vision of the world than bash and its successors.
Mono is an open source initiative that is not what I was referring to.
Please check out https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr and https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn and check the licenses of both. Mono has been lifting large chunks of the MS .NET core libraries over to their implementation because MS has done a lot of work on performance. You can download a Microsoft published source code, and build it, so that you can use the CLR family of languages on Linux and OSX.
But none of this has anything to do with cool demos like debugging executables running inside docker. That's a whole different and really cool thing they were working on.
But which OS is run in the Docker? If Linux, then I've only seen ASP.NET 5 via Mono. Core CLR is a runtime library, Roslyn a compiler, but can they be used on Linux at all and are they enough? According to the material I've linked, it's Mono for ASP.NET 5 on Linux.
How do you think it's done? I understand they debug the instances from a Windows 10, but what runs in the instances? "C#" must run on something, if the instances are Linux, how then C# runs in their examples?
ASP.NET 5 is not the only option by any means, but if that's your poison then yeah, Mono can do it.
> How do you think it's done?
I suspect there are opened ports for a remote debugging, but maybe it's even fancier. Docker and MS have been working together for the better part of a year.
What are the alternatives for C# on Linux that you'd prefer, use or would like to use? Especially as you mentioned, to be used in Docker? Thanks in advance.
I also posted that I haven't even found any sources that confirm the state of the current Core CRL on Linux being "production-ready," Microsoft also documenting Mono, and I hoped you'd give me your experience.
I think we called them 'titles' or 'misleading titles'. Magazines with the article titles on the front would do this and I think it was distinctly different from say, a newspaper where the article started right below the headline. The magazine is actually hoping you don't see any of the article before you've bought the magazine (and possibly seen ads.)
i wouldnt really call that a take down/knock down in your terms.
-noone else claims to have seen this early release of this report to be able to refute the data.+
-yes this is US online shopping only data anyalysis, this outlined in the original article giving background on 1010data that this article references[0]
it is based on data provided to 1010data from consumers as well as data analysis from the "top 100" online sellers.
the biggest online seller for ipads i assume is the Apple store, which probably isnt aggregating data to 3rd parties.
i wouldnt be suprised though if Surface+Windows 10 tablets (xiaomi mi pad 2) start to dominate the market.
most people i know who own a ipad, nearly everyone owns one, isnt looking to replace their ipads with the newer versions.
if its working, no major features/changes requiring an upgrade to a newer ipad.
everyone looking to get a new device is looking at the surface/windows 10 as a new tablet and even a laptop replacement.
Paul Thurrott is known as a serious Microsoft fanboy/apologist (he used to run or still runs the Thurrott SuperSite for Windows), so his 'knock down' carries a bit of weight.
> i wouldnt really call that a take down/knock down in your terms.
It seems rather flawed to me. If your data includes the "top 100 online sellers" but not what is probably the THE top online seller of THE top product in category (at least before the SurfaceBook) then your data is flawed to draw your conclusion.
Now we could debate if the Surface Book is a tablet (it has a touch screen and can run without a keyboard) or isn't (it runs full windows and can't last long without the battery in the keyboard)... but I don't see how you could ever claim a report about tablet sales to be useful if you don't have at least a good estimate about Apple's sales numbers.
I wonder how much of the volume are first purchases vs replacements vs additional devices? I've owned a few iPads (currently have an Air 2 and a Pro), and I wouldn't mind a Surface. As it's not a primary device, I doubt I'd want to pay full retail, so I'm more likely to wait for an online deal.
Considering the Surface tablet isn't in as many markets as the iPad, I personally assumed they meant U.S. only, and the title already states "online sales." This is good for Microsoft, however let's also note that tablet sales have been falling over all. I do think hybrids are the future, and Apple is missing that boat though. The iPad Pro is a poor attempt that honestly, I would have expected from the Microsoft of old.
Panos Panay is doing a great job with the Surface line, though I was a little disappointed with the Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book launches, both of which were plagued with firmware and driver bugs.
There are so many questions about this, not just the share of sales happening in Apple Stores but also whether 1010data's tech that monitors online shopper behavior on the client side works for OS X Safari and iOS Mobile Safari. They may be missing a skewed set of shoppers who are most likely to buy iPads.
I'm happy about this and hope there is some truth to this. It would signal to developers that maybe there is a viable third platform for apps.
As a user I've long been a tablet fan, I own several iPads and Surface tablets that are still actively used in our family. Until recently I used a Surface Pro 1 for work, I'm now getting a shiny new and fully loaded Surface Pro 4.
Using a Surface tablet as a PC (with monitor and keyboard and mouse attached) works very well, as many people have found. But Surface never really competed with iPad as a tablet, purely using touch. I know nobody who uses and likes Metro IE, Windows Mail, reads the newspaper using an app or plays games on it.
Except me: I've always felt that the only thing lacking on the Surface to compete as a tablet is good Apps and users willing to invest time learning to use it. People would find it actually is quite nice. Even the doomed Surface RT2 is superior to an iPad for many tasks, once you "get" Metro IE, the keyboard and multitasking gestures. I regularly write comments here on HN using Surface in tablet mode, which is much less fun when I try it on an iPad.
When Surface really succeeds in the market, my hope is that the App platform will finally start working. As a developer, the technology and tools feel vastly superior and more productive that those of Android and iOS so I'd be happy to start developing Windows-first again.
You're going to love your Surface 4. My Surface Pro 2 is overtaking my iPad for exactly the tasks you list: email, browsing, reading news (Flipboard) and playing games.
I love that the same machine I use for dev can become my casual tablet in a moment.
I really want to use my Surface for development, but I can't get it to work. Most of the work I do is command-line driven (Ruby, Elixir, Node) and I am so used to Vim that the experience is just awful on Windows. I've installed Cmder which helps a ton, but things are still wonky.
What's wonky about it? I installed vim through Chocolatey, but I rarely do more than a few quick edits then :wq my way out of there. Most of my work is done in Atom these days.
> That would be Windows, and it's already here, and already viable.
If you mean the Windows Desktop platform then I don't agree. That platform is simply not viable any more. A normal user can't do basic stuff like download a free game and play it like on iOS or Android. Installing anything (even from reputable sites) will infest a Windows PC with viruses and spyware.
Windows Store Apps don't have this problem, but the Windows Store has very few quality apps and is lacking in many areas. That must change for Windows to survive.
To me, and to most builders, Windows desktops, and OS X / Linux desktops, are far more viable than iOS or Android; not less. Even John Gruber admits that the iOS app store is rotting.
Desktop machines may not be sexy -- unless you happen to like games, your example of choice -- but they're reliable, users understand them, they exist in huge numbers, and they're never going away, because humans will always like large, high-resolution displays, and whatever computing device provides that will be "the desktop" going forward.
The comment about "infesting Windows PC with viruses and software" is also inaccurate, and has been since about 2008 or so.
> Windows desktops, and OS X / Linux desktops, are far more viable than iOS or Android
You mean capable, not viable. I use a big desktop too and prefer that for serious work, but I am not a mainstream user. I know how to secure my PC: I install Visual Studio, Node, Office, Java, Android SDK some utilities and not much else. Ok: I'll also install Minecraft and Steam for my kids. They also prefer the PC over the iPad for serious gaming.
But even installing java on a PC is not consumer-safe. I read an article where someone tried installing the top-10 most popular free apps from download.com accepting all defaults: after just 3 the PC was completely hosed. Therefore I advise most normal people to just use an iPad for consumer things.
Aligns with my experience, Surface 3 Pro replaced my MacBook Pro and iPad air last year and this year I've added a Sony Z3 compact 8" android tablet - which is not an "inexpensive android" device, but it is waterproof, ridiculously light and waterproof. Love it, no interest in going back. Not sure what I am going to do with iPhone 5S... Easy to leave Apple at this point, especially with the mess they made of iTunes.
I've been using many different tablets since they came out (iOS, Android, BB, Windows). I found that a large tablet is critical for productivity and I agree that 10" is the minimum, but it is also too small for me.
I also found that thin 8" tablet is perfect for ereading, whether magazines, novels, Web browsing, videos. However with the very high resolution display, it is also handy for light productivity, I can use it to ssh or tunnel xwindow into my debian boxes, review Office documents, and learn Spanish with duo lingo. Ever fall asleep and drop a Surface on your face?
Microsoft has all but abandoned the smaller than 10 inch tablet (no longer in the Microsoft stores) and I could find any high end windows tablets in that category. Of the metro/universal apps, the ones I need are not available and over the last few years many aren't being updated, lack features and are now disappearing from the Windows app and store. And with windows/Android, I can easily copy files between the devices and they both support Miracast (eg. Microsoft wireless display adapter).
Though I wouldn't have guessed it earlier this year, this seems like a bygone conclusion. Last night I tried out the iPad Pro for the first time while killing time at an Apple Store...I liked it, though I've had an iPad since it first came out so there's much less of that revelatory experience with each iteration. The store had the iPad Pros set up with the keyboard cases and I've never used my iPads with a keyboard so I was delightfully surprised that my favorite OS X shortcut -- Cmd-Tab -- worked for application switching. Unfortunately, none of the other shortcuts I'm used to worked, such as Cmd-T to open a new tab in the browser, and so forth.
In a way, the iPad Pro felt like tablet's version of the uncanny valley...close to "real" computing but not annoyingly not quite enough...unless major overhauls are made to iOS, and every application built on it thus far, I couldn't imagine using the iPad for anything more than media consumption. And when I think about it, I hardly ever use the iPad for any app that is iPad-only -- I use it mostly for web browsing, reading, and Netflix-watching -- things I can switch effortlessly to on my Macbook.
I had thought the Surface was doomed to fail, in trying to serve both as a tablet and as a regular computer and screwing up both...but in retrospect, it seems like the intuitive strategy. Most tablet functionality is purely a subset of what a regular laptop can do...and attempts to port OSX apps to iOS have rarely resulted in something that was better as a native tablet app. Adding to this, the majority of the computing world is already entrenched in Windows applications...even as someone who has been almost exclusively OS X for the last 10 years, my next tablet purchase will probably be a Surface...doing productive work on Excel and Windows-versions of Sublime Text is better than attempting it on iOS by far.
edit: And maybe familiarity breeds contempt -- and/or I'm entering in my tech-curmudgeon phase...but besides the initial iterations on multi-touch -- two fingers to scroll, pinching, stretching, rotation -- I've been less than inspired by iOS's innovations in touch gestures. In fact, I find myself frequently fighting against accidental actions, such as how dragging my fingers a little lazily to the left while reading a webpage triggers the browser's Back action. And how I'm frequently accidentally activating my Slack app (because it's the only one I have that has multitasking?) when my fingers do something on the right side of the browser. I feel we've reached the limits of what we can intuitively express via finger-motion gestures and if Surface's tablet functionality had far fewer of them...that would actually be a net positive for me.
I had the Surface 2 & 3 as primary mobile computer devices. The 2 I used a year, the 3 less than a month due to a problem which may or may not have been a defect. There should be some historical posts on hn where I was wrote that I was shocked how great the 2 was. Now I'm 100% iPhone - iPad Pro - 2015 Macbook. Anything that requires heavy processor power is done through remote servers.
From a security and privacy standpoint I feel a little bit better with Apple than Google/Android. Microsoft I don't know enough about at this current point in time to make a judgement call on.
With an iOS or Android device you can remote in to a Windows, Linux, or OSX desktop. Every year things have become visibly better and easier to use. Much of the biggest stuff is cross platform. If you use Adobe Creative Cloud you can jump from Windows to OS X with no license switching issues. Many other companies have followed.
Years back I attempted to go ultra mobile with a Fujitsu U810 (convertible where the whole computer was about the size of your hand.) Watching the transitions since then, today things feel very mature. Back then if I tried using that thing I could work at about 1/20th speed. Now I'm desktop speed (my last desktop had 3x 27" screens.) The high DPI mobile screens help a massive amount.
You have to tweak your workflows and find the right apps. Sometimes small things can be a big problem, such as a keyboard shortcut not working right when you are remoted in through a tablet.
Te device matters less and less. It is now much more about weight, battery life, heat output, and stability (not crashing when you pick it up weird, which the Surface did to me often.)
cmd-t does open a new tab in Safari, and the other major shortcuts I'm used to from desktop Safari also work: reload (r), location bar (l), back/forward ([/]), previous/next tab ({/}), find (f), close (w).
I do agree it's frustrating that there isn't parity (yet?), but I've been working my way through the Advent of Code with my iPad Pro and Coda, and have been reasonably happy with the experience.
All of that is irrelevant. As far as I can tell (and it seems the same for others) there is nothing saying that this data includes Apple's 1st party sales to consumers.
That's like saying Walgreens products are bombing in the market because no one is selling them (and your data doesn't include Walgreens stores).
I bought my wife a Surface Pro 3 last year. We debated very hard over the SP vs. a macbook. She does a lot of work with MS Office - so it seemed like a good choice.
The bluetooth and wifi are now non functional (looks like a hardware issue), and Microsoft wants $400 to replace the unit (it went out of warranty in June).
Perhaps I have no reason to complain (it is out of warranty) - but I expect high end hardware to last longer.
This will be the last Microsoft product I purchase.
I've had my own share of interesting S3 Pro issues expecially with Windows 10, but almost all of them have been software / firmware related. You tried restoring to Windows 8.1 and same problems?
This is sad for me, not exactly by the Microsoft "win", but by the Apple "loss". Yes, you can call me a devotee if you like.
What I feel is that the only company which cares (cared?) for design (bear in mind: true design, not decoration) and end-user experience has lost their edge. It's sad for me, on one hand because I'd rather see more - not less - companies being design oriented. On the other hand, pragmatically, it's also worrying because I don't know which laptop/smartphone I should buy when my current ones "expire".
I like/liked Apple because they had a fundamental vision; their devices didn't seem to be full of gimmickry or spec/feature-oriented. Now they are releasing phablets, hybrids, battery extending cases and operating systems full of new features.
So, the mobile computing dark ages begin? Jobs said the same regarding desktop computing in 1996. I think the web was obviously overlooked in his remark, but he was quite accurate regarding the desktop per se.
I don't understand the whole "I want to use my tablet as a laptop" craze and vice versa.
I use my Macbook Pro for laptop stuff, and my iPad Pro for reading books and PDFs and drawing diagrams etc. Why would I want to merge both devices into one?
I wouldn't want such thing. I like focused products. But the geek opinion-makers in the web like buzzwords such as "convergence" and "hybrids". It seems relevant, because opinion-makers talk about it, but - at least to me - the relevance to real-world users still has to be proven.
1010data is a cloud services data insight company. Yahoo Finance, The International Business Times, and Forbes are all reporting their numbers. It's based on looking at online sales from the top 100 online retailers and extrapolating sales from that data.
1010data is not fly by night. They've been around since 2000 and most of their stuff is designed to provide insight to retailers when it comes to what they need to sell. This is an internal industry report, not something generally released to the public. WinBeta got their hands on it, but it's not a shocker. The iPad has not been doing well. While the entire tablet segment has been stagnant, the iPad has been hardest hit. The growth segment in the market has been in higher cost productivity designs that can do more.
This kind of market data has been around for over a year. It tells you why we're seeing all these "me too" Surface products. It's not just Surface, it's 2-in-1s that are attracting people. Why did Apple make an iPad Pro? Because this is where tablets are going. Few need a consumption only tablet when they can have a device that works for that AND also can get work done.
Either IDC or Gartner is showing that Microsoft is closing in on 20% of tablet share and is expected to pass the iPad in the next few years. This is not just Surface but the Windows tablets. They are the largest growth segment in tablets. Microsoft has gone from 0% to over 10% in only about 2 years.
So for those that wonder about UWP and apps for phones - they are coming because of these 2-in-1s. This is why Satya Nadella has asked for some patience. This 1010data info is for retail industry and it is how many (like Best Buy) will determine what to stock, what to push, etc.
In other words, the Microsoft Surface is the IT tablet for right now. Microsoft has managed to create a major brand that is looked at as a quality one while also using it as a halo brand that can filter down to other OEMs.
Do not be surprised if we find out by this time next year that Windows tablets overall have surpassed the iPad. And as the Surface surges and UWP becomes more viable, the opportunity of have a Surface convergence device that can be a phone emerges as an interesting concept to reboot the idea of what Windows is on mobile.
Everyone is so focused on right now where Android seems insurmountable and Apple is strong. Both will continue to be viable for a long time, but Microsoft is putting together an alternative narrative that allows consumption and production on single devices and on a single OS. We're only at the beginning of the UWP salvo.
The report is solid, but limited. Brick and mortar retailers aren't counted here - and that includes Apple Stores. Of course, physical Microsoft Stores are not counted either, but they are a much smaller group.
Did overall Surface sales trump the iPad? Likely not. But there's a reason why Apple was compelled to make the iPad Pro. The Surface is a REAL danger to them. For them to mock it and then backtrack when it has succeeded tells you all you need to know.
And the Surface is becoming the key to UWP. If it remains a hot item, it remains an attractive target for developers.
Ahh, here's one of the sites that did a take down of this report:
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/ios/62854/so-did-surface-rea...