Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China. And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there.

The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country. Take it while you till have that option.

As far as technical solutions, how good are they at tracking down individual, private VPN sessions? Setup OpenVPN on a friend's server and don't advertise it.

I voluntarily live in China and in many ways prefer living here to living in my homeland (the US). Otherwise, why would I be here? The food's great, the economy's great, people are friendly if you try to understand the culture, cost of living is low, and there's plenty of interesting historical stuff all around. Not to mention it's a very fascinating time to be here as you can see the most populous nation on Earth rapidly undergoing social and technological change.

Just don't get so hung up on the politics and you'll find that the water's warm :)

Cost of living ain't low, unless you live in a village. Shanghai is more expensive than NY. A beer is 45RMB, and that's for a Bud, not a fancy micro. Live like a local and you forgo comfort for cost. Anything foreign or of genuine quality is 2x the price as the western world. Even HK is a deal, unless you have to buy or rent property.Every time I go for business, I do all my shopping for 100% originals, not fakes. The price difference is astounding.

By not caring about the politics, you enable the problem. The CCP is making a mint off the US and becoming unstoppable. Society is crumbling and the rights and freedoms of the average citizens are falling as quickly. Culture? Where does the CCP fit into that? Communism, when did that become China's culture?

Stepping on 1 billion people to raise up 300 million is not progress.

You really, really got a bad deal on your beer. I've had imports at Shanghai restaurants for a fraction of that. Shanghai can be expensive, but it's nothing like NYC. In Shanghai, you can live within a short walk of the subway line, eat out every day and have a maid to cook your other 2 meals for under 1000USD/month. Loads of college grads in the city earn less than half that.

If you have absolutely no ability to adapt to local food and need to have everything as you had it at home, then it will definitely cost you. Immigrants to the west can't always find their favorite food or products, either.

Really, you complain about China because a Bud is 45 kuai?!?! Of course anything foreign is more expensive than the west. You realize you are in the other side of the world, right?

About the CCP making a mint off the US: Keep in mind that is the US that's selling treasuries.

> Of course anything foreign is more expensive than the west. You realize you are in the other side of the world, right?

Actually that has more to do with Chinese currency manipulation than anything else. By refusing to adjust their currency appropriately, foreign goods are unaffordable to most domestics. This is the reason their economy is growing at amazing rates -- it's not magic. Long term this will cause problems, such as local property bubbles and potentially tariffs imposed on their exports as other countries get pissed.

Funny how no one used to complain when it was the rich countries who dictated the rules of the game (via the IMF).

A Snow, at 3 to 5 kuai, tastes good. King Long's cheaper, but tastes awful.

And apparently don't rely on a working Internet.

That's snarky and ignorant. I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. The Internet blocking never effected my ability to deliver quality IT solutions to my customers.

It is, in fact, both snarky and ignorant, but to tell the truth, I'd love to spend some time in China, but I worry about connectivity. Since the only news I ever hear about the Internet in China is bad, what am I supposed to think? That maybe it would just be OK?

I suppose having functional health care might make up for spotty connectivity.

Actually - could you email me? I'd like to get an idea of cost-of-living in different cities in China. I'm a technical translator (and do some sysadmin) and so continual connectivity is drop-dead necessary for my livelihood, but about a year or two from now I'd really like to go to China for a year or two to poke around and get to know it.

> I suppose having functional health care might make up for spotty connectivity.

Tough choice. Somewhere in the 'hackers hobbies' threads someone details that he had to pay $100K out of pocket for medical expenses.

As for the connectivity, simply set up a VPN on a box that you alone own and use and I'm sure you'll be fine.

I cannot imagine what "quality" IT solutions you sold over here. Where did you get your HW and SW from, the IT malls run by teenagers? Internet blocking not a problem? I guess you don't read much online. It amazes me what I cannot get access to without my VPN. No videos, no blogs, no web 2.0. The world is passing China by.

But, I guess you are back in the safety and security of the good ol' USA, so it ain't your problem anymore.

I understand your current frustration. If you expect everyplace you go to be just like home, your bound to be frustrated.

As far as "quality" IT solutions go. Well, lets see here: I helped the Shanghai gov make an e-workflow solution for procurement. This cut down on costs and kickbacks a lot. I helped several Chinese banks become online banks. Some of my middleware code processes billions in transactions without breaking a sweat.

I'm sorry you don't feel safe and secure in China. I was at Home Depot last week with my son. About an hour after I left, a guy shot and killed another man on isle 13...same isle we were on. I never feared for the safety of my family in Shanghai.

I lived in Mountain View (California -- where Google is located) and I had to call the police twice because I heard gun shots over the creek behind my apt complex. In China I go to the ATM at 2am and it's totally safe.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

--Ben F

And, ironically, that's exactly what the American people did with the patriot act and 8 years of Bush.

Comparing Mountain View to China... wow, China must be alot smaller than I thought.

> No videos, no blogs, no web 2.0. The world is passing China by.

I think that may be very much debatable. No videos, no blogs, no web 2.0 could also mean less distractions to get real, technical work done.

There you go again, injecting reason in to an otherwise entertaining argument not hindered by facts and figures.

The 'red scare' seems to be alive and well.

A propos snark and ignorance, my wife is Hungarian, and as my other reply makes clear, this is less "red scare" and more "lack of connectivity scare". If you want to imply that all Americans live in fear of Communism, I can find you plenty that meet your prejudices, but painting us all with the same brush is pretty much calling the kettle black.

I have lots of American friends and very few of them would fall for the 'red scare' stuff, but I'm actually surprised to see so much of it in a HN thread.

Lack of connectivity is a problem, but it is a technical problem. The suggestion that someone in China would go to jail or worse for asking a question is what got me irritated.

It's simply misinformation and fear mongering.

If you went all out against the government as a foreigner I still think they'd just run you out of the country, rather than jail you to avoid a diplomatic incident.

The people that are most at risk in China from the government are the dissidents that openly confront the government about various issues and the people that chip away at the powerbase from below.

Of course it is absolutely reprehensible that free speech is not protected and that there are so many corrupt officials there, but the problems are rather deep seated and for the most part it will be the Chinese people that will one day solve this.

Compared to the implosion of Russia and the abject poverty as well as the rise of the Mafia that you can directly trace back to the 'vlasti' in the former Soviet Union China is doing reasonably well, they could have done a lot worse.

They also could have done significantly better than they're doing today but for that to happen they first have to get rid of the old guard and they're not going to let go without a real fight.

The play the ruling class in China is making is one where they try to give the people just enough bread and games that they won't rise up against them in the longer term. It's a fine line they're riding and I think in the long run they'll lose. Time will tell.

Anybody that goes to China to live there from the West has my blessing, they're the people that are entrepreneurial at heart, seeking out new frontiers and gambling their fortune on it.

Ah. So when I said, "And apparently don't rely on a working Internet," and you said, "Red scare," you were responding to everybody else on the thread, and not me. Sorry for the confusion.

> Quite frankly I think you are nuts for voluntarily living in China.

Why? Two of my friends are doing the exact same thing (only their businesses are registered) and they're doing just fine. One moved there from the Netherlands, the other from Hungary.

> And trying to run a business off the books? The punishment for that is severe enough here in the US, I cannot imagine what it is there.

Neither can I, but that's not the same as having information.

> The only real solution to your problem is to move to a free country.

His s.o. wants to be in China, that's a tough choice you're giving him there.

You mean a free country like the US perhaps:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c...

> Take it while you till have that option.

Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps?

"You mean a free country like the US perhaps:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-08/betonsports-ex-c... "

I don't find it difficult to distinguish a country which by and large abides by the rule of law---even if one thinks upon occasion that the law is an ass---with a country that barely pretends.

And we don't know what's going to be the long term consequences of the PRC's steadily increasing crackdown on the Internet. The current ruling class is clearly determined to not see a repeat of Tiananmen Square; not getting in their way strikes me as a very good idea, even if that means running a normal Internet business has become impossible.

Have you experienced law enforcement and courts in China? I have on several occasions. As well as the U.S.. I lived in Shanghai 10 years. I'm in the U.S. right now with my Chinese wife. My experiences in Shanghai court and with Shanghai police were more fair and congenial than in the U.S. My wife and I were at the county courthouse (U.S.) a week ago and we talked a bit about the flow of a court proceeding. Somewhere in the middle of my description she stopped me and said "You mean the judge takes the word of the police with no hard evidence over the word of the defendant?". Even further, in the U.S., the police usually make some sort of determination of what happened or who is at fault in disputes. This bias carries over into legal proceedings. Not so in Shanghai. The police only take witness reports exactly as stated and provide notarization and copies of the reports to the parties.

Running an Internet business in China is not impossible. I ran and helped others run them for 10 years. The Internet censoring can be a problem at times but is not a top factor in your success or failure as a business.

I've stayed out of this till now; but feel I have to add something here.

I worked for a client in Shanghai to clear him of Fraud allegations (just to get it out of the way; he was beyond clearly innocent - competitors had planted "evidence" and reported him). One of the most memorable things he said (and I feel this sums up Chinese hierarchy to a tee) was:

The legal system here is absolutely great. It's when they decide not to use it that things get dicey

Apologies if my previous post implied China law and justice was better than the U.S. The two systems aren't easily compared. I was attempting to provide a counterbalance to my parent post's hyperbola. [ADDED]: I should not have said the China system is more fair and congenial than the U.S. What I should have said is I was disarmed by how fair it was compared to what I was prepared to experience based on my prejudice.

As to what your client went through...all I can say is there are bad people everywhere. Rule #1 for me in China is "Don't do business with shady people or in market segments dominated by shady people". I think you can apply this rule anywhere.

Not in quite the same way. Because all you need to do is compete with a local firm too well, or piss off the wrong person, or cause problems by not working in the accepted way.

There's the crucial difference I feel.

(though on the other hand it's not as bad a picture as some people like to paint. You just have to be sensible and keep your head down)

I gave that example because the entrepreneur it writes about was a foreigner visiting the US with a business outside of the US where his activities were legal.

Indeed, but it's still within the confines of the rule of law. He could have avoided this unhappy conclusion by either not accepting business from the US that is illegal here or never stepping foot in the US.

Heck, he could have joined Antigua in bringing this before the WTO in 2003: http://www.antiguawto.com/WTODispPg.html

The law was published, well publicized and I find it very difficult to believe he didn't know or ever question why 98% of his business was as a result of it. That's different in nature from web sites steadily disappearing due to the Great Firewall of China. You could of course assume that any access you have to the outside will disappear some day, but you then wouldn't build a business that is based on international Internet access.

If it is legal to smoke pot in Amsterdam, but illegal to do it in the US would you consider it ok for US law enforcement to jail visitors that have smoked pot in Amsterdam, or sold pot to United States citizens?

I don't believe this has anything to do with what you or I think is OK, I think it has to do with the rule of law and how that helps or hinders businesses.

Having reasonably clear constitutions (big C and small c), laws and rules allows one to plan for the future and focus on serving customers and the like instead of worrying if the state will inadvertently shut you down (I assume we're both assuming that what the poster is trying to do as a business is not against PRC state policy, it's just collateral damage).

For the most part all of the traffic blocked by the 'great firewall' of China is collateral damage. And that's exactly the problem.

The human right violations in China notwithstanding the majority of the people there have roughly the same ability to plan their lives and the future ahead of them as a person in the US would.

It's just that instead of relying on laws and judges they rely on corruption to stay out of trouble.

China is slowly improving in this respect, the laws are applied more consistently and corruption is slowly reduced in the eye of the public as the means to a way to deal with authorities.

It will take at least another lifetime, or maybe longer, after all it took a long time to mess it up so it will take a long time to repair it.

But anybody that is seriously comparing the situation in China today with 1989 is really out of touch with what is happening in China.

The Chinese government is caught between a rock and a hard place too, they have serious problems of their own making that they can not repair easily without risking a Soviet style melt down. Their information policies are an exponent of an older faction in their government that wants to go back to the past or at a minimum freeze the situation as it is today. But the seeds of market forces have been planted and there really is no reversing the trend.

Compare with the RIAA in the United States for a good analogy, their 'business model' is mostly dead but they're holding on for dear life and using every trick in the book to make it last as long as they can.

Eventually, they will lose, and the trend is irreversible, the people in China will never give up the rights they've gained in the last 20 years.

Thanks for the insightful posts. I'm just curious as to the "older faction" within the government you pointed out, any idea as to their age, or how long they are likely to remain in power? Do you think there will be a succession of their ideologies or will they be buried together?

Sorry if the question sounds kinda narrow, but it seems like a bottleneck to a lot of problems. In my limited knowledge of Chinese politics from surfing, it seems that the faction of engineers among the newer generation of Chinese politicians happen to be quite enlightened, though they have to compete with the children of the previous communist leaders who came to power through nepotism.

It just reminds me of the whole thing Europe had to go through not so long ago.

This is the fringe of my knowledge on China so please factcheck.

When Mao Zedong died in '76 he left behind a mixed bag of good and bad, he managed to keep China together in spite of serious internal pressures between ethnic groups, but in the process killed millions (some estimates run as high as 80 million people) and left behind a country that was on the brink of economic collapse.

After Deng Xiaoping took over the focus became the economy, less the ideology, which I think was more seen as a way to remain in power, rather than as a real guide to how to run the country. The 'party' became a device rather than a place for true believers.

Over the last 30 years then, slowly but surely Chinese officials have tried to both hold on to their power while staving off a revolution of a dissatisfied populace by giving them access to elements of the 'free market' in a piece-meal fashion.

The real benefit of this gradual release has been that a Soviet style implosion was avoided, the downside is that many of the old power structures remain, and that corruption is, in spite of a serious effort to combat it still a huge problem.

The ruling class in China is limited to a relatively small group of people (as compared to the size of the Chinese population), not unlike the Bush and Kennedy families in the United States, only without the nicety of a public election.

One of the reasons why I think Chinese people in power are so scared of all this communications power their underlings have is that it would allow them to effectively organize a protest that could not be struck down so easily.

Every so many years the 'old guard' dies off and has to be replaced by new people, and - surprise, surprise - these tend to be family members of the previous old guard, who apparently are the only Chinese people that are able to govern this country. It's a dynasty in anything but name.

The nepotism you allude to is alive and well at the highest levels, but below there is slowly a real change of the guard happening, and these people are not satisfied with being relegated to just being 'implementors', they want real power.

And they'll sooner or later get it, but I don't know if that's on a timescale of 20 years or 100's of years.

All that's needed for that to happen is a connection between the potential mob and the higher cadre of the government below they dynasty figures, and the thing that holds it off is gradual economic reform. If they manage to turn China around to the point where the economy is strong enough that a large majority of the Chinese populace is satisfied with their lot it will remain a peaceful transition and those that brokered it will probably remain in power for a long time.

If they mess up, if China gets hit by a severe economic crisis or if they overplay their hand then all bets are off.

It sounds like you are quite enamored with U.S. justice. I'm guessing you've never been arrested and put through the system.

From this post, you are indicating that if the law is published and clear, then its ok? I've found it very easy to understand Chinese laws. What's your point?

Perhaps some web sites are being blocked as a competitive measure. Are you saying a country and government must engage in free and open trade? What if they choose to play the international trade game different?

As a start I will point you here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Peoples_Rep... (note: that should be People's the HN url detector clobbers it)

There are enough other sites with information on China's civil rights abuses that you should be able to duck Duck Go it ;)

Living in a country with little or no respect for the law and expecting a reasonable outcome is not rational. You cannot extrapolate the experiences of your friends to cover the whole system, you don't have enough data. History shows us that China can be very ruthless in enforcing their idea of laws.

I really recomend you read chinalawblog.com it's a great blog and can give you a picture of the law situation in China, which for some things is better than most think.

That link points in to empty space, and even if it didn't I highly doubt you'll find a single documented case of a foreigner operating a business in China that was jailed, unless they were doing something illegal.

Simply asking for resources with a statement that you'll be forced to leave if you can't work will most likely not result in a jail sentence or even any action at all.

Without proof that's just scaremongering about China.

We all know China has human rights abuses, but if you read the charter on human rights then you'd know that there is almost no single country that does not have their share of that.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/page.do?id=1011100

Of course I can not extrapolate the experience of my friends to the whole system, but neither can you extrapolate the other way around and say that there is absolutely no reason in China at all and that a mere request would get you punished.

Unless you can back that up with proof.

Your first sentence is a circular argument when the state gets to arbitrarily define what's illegal and notoriously includes legally undefined "state secrets" that have extended to basic economic information ... or anything that embarrasses someone in power.

Any state that I'm aware of works that way. The proverb is "If the state does it it is not illegal" for a reason.

In some 'free' countries it is even illegal to talk about the state muzzling you or turning over information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter

um... last sentence of the introductory blurb: "The gag order was ruled unconstitutional as an infringement of free speech, in the Doe v. Ashcroft case.[1]"

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, but alot of the arguments and especially analogies you're using in this discussion are intellectually dishonest.

The fact that it was ruled un-constitutional does not take away the fact that this law was in effect for several years.

And it's not the only example of such a law, and not all of them have been ruled un-constitutional.

I don't know what you mean with 'intellectually dishonest', all I'm trying to do is to point out that there is plenty wrong in China but we in the so-called 'free west' have enough beams in our own eyes to preclude us from going all 'oh my' about China without qualifications.

The anti-China sentiment here seems to be for the most part based on media and fear of the unknown rather than on solid facts, and you could make exactly the same case about the US and various other 'free' countries.

I'm all for criticizing human rights violations, but then let's be fair and even handed about it, instead of suggesting that a simple request could get you in trouble with the law in China, which as far as I know from those that I know that live and work in China is simply not true.

I also note that I was the one to step up and actually do something about this particular problem in this particular instance.

Like I said, I don't disagree with most of your sentiments. However, the fact that it was ruled unconstitutional refutes your assertion that it is illegal in the US, when in fact that law itself was determined to be illegal. I'm well aware that free speech in the US is limited, but I'm not aware of any other such draconian limitations that have been determined to be constitutional in the recent past. I would be interested to know about them (or possibly argue with you about them :P) if you cite some.

While I'm painfully aware that the US is at a point on the spectrum far from what I consider to be ideal, that point is very much closer to my ideal than the point China occupies, and even the point most other western democracies occupy (that last was hugely disappointing to me when I realized it).

The comment that struck me as most intellectually dishonest was the parallel you drew between the arrest of the British(?) businessman engaging in business which is illegal in the US, with US customers residing and present in the US when the business was conducted, with the arrest of a US citizen and/or foreign provider of marijuana in which the transaction occurs completely outside of the US where they claim no jurisdiction. To be sure there are many cases in which the US Govt oversteps its jurisdictional boundaries and they are not hard to find, so I found that comparison to be questionable.

Lastly, I saw lower down in the comments that you volunteered your services to the OP and found it admirable, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Edit: I'm also not sure why you're getting downvoted on valid comments, even if I don't agree with them.

I'm sorry, I keep up as good as I can with US law but every now and then something slips by me. I should have read that piece in its entirety before linking to it, I just wanted to have a reference to the kind of abuse I had in mind.

If you're just as up-to-date to Dutch law as I am on the laws of the United States and you're an American than my hat is off to you ;)

Once again, apologies.

The things that most bother me about the US is the increased collaboration behind the scenes when it comes to telcos and the NSA, most of that is invisible but every now and then you get a glimmer of what's going on and it is simply scary.

Furthermore, the US intelligence services have already at least once in the past used their information to conduct industrial espionage on behalf of a US company abroad (search for enercon).

The fact that any or all of that is in the past makes little or no difference to me, it suggests strongly that there is stuff going down today, just that we won't know about it for a while, if ever.

As for the Marijuana/Betonsports analogy, I think it is perfectly legal, in both cases the United States has nothing to do with what is going on, they are illegally projecting their laws to have effect outside of their borders.

The real reason why this case went down the way it did is not because betting in the US is illegal, the US government would simply like their cut. Here in NL the exact same thing is happening and I'm as much against it as I think betonsports should have been allowed to operate.

A government should not have any say in how a foreign company runs its business.

> Lastly, I saw lower down in the comments that you volunteered your services to the OP and found it admirable, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

As for what that has to do with anything, I thought that it showed that I concede there is a problem, but instead of berating the OP for making stupid choices in life (which I think he has not made, even though I suggested that he could move, but that's some of the sentiment above) instead of the 'wise' ones to go and live in a 'free' country instead I chose to act. Talk is cheap.

> I'm also not sure why you're getting downvoted on valid comments, even if I don't agree with them.

As for the downvotes, it goes with the territory, HN used to be the place where you could have an argument and be on the un-popular side of it without a bunch of downvotes but that time is mostly gone.

I agree with you that China and the US are not at the same point when it comes to 'freedom', but both have a long way to go (as do most other countries), and the situation in China is not nearly as bad as some here would have you believe.

That's just fear mongering.

I try to keep up with EU technology law, but I'm afraid I only keep up with specifics for individual countries when its widely covered. You can keep your hat on :P

Many things that our intelligence agencies do disturbs me as well, and in fact the policy on the NSA telecom cooperation case as well as other areas where I consider the government to be acting unconstitutionally are my biggest gripe with the Obama administration.

Back to marijuana betonsports: I still disagree. That type of betting is strictly prohibited, and while I think that law should be removed, it is a perfectly valid law to enforce, despite its being driven by a desire for tax revenue and a large dose of hypocrisy. The fact that the provider of the service is not in the US means that they generally will not be gone after as long as they remain outside the US (assuming they are not breaking their own country's laws) unless their own country agrees for some reason that they should be extradited. However once they set foot on US soil the US govt is well within its rights to arrest them. They did break a US law interacting with people under US jurisdiction. The appropriate marijuana comparison in my opinion, would be when a US citizen mail ordered marijuana from someone who is allowed to export it under their local laws. Ignoring any illegal actions taken by other people to get the drugs into the US, should the marijuana dealer be immune to arrest when they enter the US?

As far as the "must leave china" comments, I agree, and now I see why you made that comment. I sometimes tend to disconnect specific comments I want to respond to from the larger discussion, so please don't take any comments I made as implicit agreement with the people you're already arguing with. ;) And I'd tend to say that just about everywhere is much more towards the middle of the freedom spectrum than most people believe. Its just so much easier to think in black and white than all those greys that make up the real world.

> They did break a US law interacting with people under US jurisdiction.

I disagree with you there, it was the people in the US that were under US jurisdiction, betonsports was not an American company and so American jurisdiction does not apply to them. The fact that the guy was arrested on a sealed warrant is quite telling, if he was really in violation of the law in his jurisdiction they would have applied for his extradition instead. The US would like its law to extend to all the countries in the world, but in turn does not even allow its citizens to stand trial abroad when for instance accused of war crimes.

Incidentally, I feel the same about France trying to apply its laws to Yahoo! and Ebay, and Italy trying to apply its laws to Google (though, in both cases the company involved did have a presence on the soil of those countries, but said presences were absolutely not involved in the perceived transgressions).

I prefer to see the grays :)

Keeps me sane and stops me from going all out about 'how great' the place where I happen to live is, a bit of perspective is badly needed.

> They did break a US law interacting with people under US jurisdiction. The appropriate marijuana comparison in my opinion, would be when a US citizen mail ordered marijuana from someone who is allowed to export it under their local laws. Ignoring any illegal actions taken by other people to get the drugs into the US, should the marijuana dealer be immune to arrest when they enter the US?

Good question. My point of view would be 'absolutely not'.

And my main reason for feeling that way is that it should not be a requirement of a business abroad to even be aware of all the laws and statues of countries where they are not based when doing business over the internet. If the bets were legal in England it doesn't matter whether a US person visits in person or the transaction takes place online.

The drugs scenario you describe is being acted out every day by the way.

>The drugs scenario you describe is being acted out every day by the way.

Thats why I used it. And it makes those dealers criminals in the US. I didn't mean he was under US jurisdiction when he broke the law, I meant he broke a US law which had effect in the US where the law applies. The US acknowledges that he did not break the local law where he was at the time, but he was one half of an action (or actually I guess millions of actions) that was in violation of US law and took effect under US jurisdiction. I can't remember what it is called, but someone in a reddit or HN discussion a few weeks ago introduced me to the legal concept whereby being a party to such a transaction extends personal jurisdiction to include you. Since he was not breaking UK law he could not be extradited, but once he was on US soil he could be arrested for the crime he committed.

I was discussing at work the other day how I am what I described as an "internet libertarian" so I'm also opposed to all of those laws being enforced against actions on the internet, but I don't dispute the legal right they have to do it.

>it should not be a requirement of a business abroad to even be aware of all the laws and statues of countries where they are not based

Unfortunately, as with laws in most places (I'm not aware of any such places actually), ignorance is not a defense. While it may be taken into account while determining your punishment, it does not absolve you of guilt. The judge in that case specifically addressed, when a request for a lesser sentence was made, her belief that the defendant knew what he was doing was a violation of US law.

>My point of view would be 'absolutely not'.

From your explanation I take it you misread the question, and actually believe that this person should not be arrested (and should be immune). Lets take it to the extreme then, and suppose that I live in a country where hiring contract killers is legal and only the actually murderer can be punished. If I paid for someone in the US to be murdered, the US government should not be able to arrest me when I come to the funeral?

The internet does make it much easier to do business with people all over the world, and that should be taken into account when trying to apply local laws to foreign actors, but saying that a sovereign state should have no right to take action against people who violate their laws (in which part or all of the action takes place or has effect within their territorial jurisdiction) goes way too far.

>> Take it while you till have that option. >Are you suggesting they will restrict his ability to travel? Jail him perhaps?

I think he meant to say, "while there are still free countries in this world".

You could say that this is actually beneficial for chinese startups, because without access to foreign alternatives chinese users are forced to use their services. I don't think it's a coincidence if most segments of the chinese internet are dominated by a company from China, not the USA.

The other goal that the Chinese government is achieving, is that by pushing chinese users towards chinese companies, they make sure that they keep them under their thumb. It's much easier for them to take down a video from Youku than from Youtube.

That's slightly oversimplified I think, and risks ignoring e greater causes of why Chinese internet companies have succeeded beyond American ones in that market. Facebook ripoffs like Xiaonei were vastly more popular than Facebook itself even when no block was in place.

I didn't say that was the only cause, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the main factors in those sites' success.

Here is a simple solution might help...Get a vacation out of China. Setup a VPN and done.

If you love Chinese culture and freedom, you better try Taiwan. It's a republic (100 years mostly), democratic little island with Chinese traditional culture inside. I think if you want to do a startup for your future business entrance into China. Taiwan might be great for you. Although the market is small, but you can think that's an exercise/evaluation in China market. After all, you won't sacrifice your freedom and social justice.

Oh, by the way, there will be a FTA (ECFA) coming up between China and Taiwan. Sooner or later there will be lots of trade activities going on between the strait.

Another vote for Taiwan.

People are friendly, the society is (mostly) free and you don't have to compromise your conscience. Food is great, diverse and safe. Granted, local driving habits are suicidal, but that not really different from the mainland.

The level of technical expertise around is very high. I've been doing hardware development in Taipei, and for about any component you can source vendor's field assistance engineer within a day.

The trade agreement though seems to be very heated topic there, with lots of lobbying pro and contra. But ultimately it is likely to come through.

Sign up for a $20 slice at slice host, install squid, and configure a ssh tunnel to it. Tell your browser to use the tunneled proxy. Voilà.

Edit: just saw two others recommended this approach.

Since he is on a shoe string budget, there are plenty of cheaper VPS solutions, many under $7/mo. I had one for $3.84/mo for awhile. Latest deals are collected at http://lowendbox.com

I lived in China for years, I recommend this approach....

Be sure to push your DNS through the OpenSSH tunnel too, or they'll see your client's DNS requests. Here is a very short write-up on safe web browsing while on untrusted networks: http://16systems.com/OpenBSD/untrusted.pdf

Instead of an OpenSSH tunnel, use OpenVPN. It has settings to automatically push DNS, and on my Mac for example using Tunnelblick (a wrapper) I can have a GUI that can give me status updates on my tunnels, and when they get disconnected, to make sure I don't accidentally sent information down the wrong line.

For proxied services, the proxy (e.g., squid) server on the other end of the ssh tunnel will be making the DNS requests.

If you want to be fastidious enough to hide the DNS for un-proxied services, you'll probably also want to have a firewall blocking and logging most outgoing non-tunneled services so you can identify them and configure the clients and proxy appropriately.

The problem with this is the same as for services like dropbox. If enough people do this they will start blocking the slicehost IPs.

To be successful you need to have * IP usage distributed over a wide range * private distribution of proxy details * ability to switch to a new proxy when your current one is blocked

Tor tries to accomplish most of this, but from the OP's post it appears that it is being effectively blocked, either by watching Tor entry points or by packet inspection.

In practice, only services that are advertising themselves as a way to get around the firewall may get blocked. Using SSH through some arbitrary VPS provider in the U.S., the chances of it getting blocked are very low...low, as in I've done it for years with the same IP with no problems.

In practice the great firewall is still not blocking vpn, even a weak pptp is ok. Many very well known vpn services are still not blocked, and not because of ignorance from govt. Just search for vpn on taobao (chinese ebay), and you'll find plenty of options.

Does Tor use encryption between nodes? If so that should solve the deep packet inspection, right? If not, why not?

Tor encrypts between nodes, the problem is getting connected to the Tor network, you need an entry point. What the government is doing is blocking the entry points. Initially the public bridges, and then the bridge nodes (normal ones anyway).

You need to get the ip of a bridge before you can connect, but once this becomes available(semi public information) the government also learns it and blocks the ip.

There are dedicated teams here whose job is to suppress connections to Tor from inside China.

Actually don't use slicehost but a small time ISP that can offer this kind of service.

Rent a VPS or dedicated server outside china and use an SSH proxy.

Linux: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/18/tunnel-web-and-dns-tr... Windows: http://www.dotcomunderground.com/blogs/2008/12/11/putty-ssh-...

Expect everything going through the great firewall to be slow. Also I wonder if they will allow encrypted connections over a longer period at all if they already run a app firewall.

That's what I'm doing, it's not very slow (or at least I don't really feel the difference)...

I don't think they'll ever block encrypted connections because that would deal a major blow to the foreign companies working here.

How long will China tolerate VPNs? While they are an essential tool for international business, they also completely defeat the firewall.

The chinese government don't care about VPN that target people with credit cards that can pay in US dollars because most local chinese won't have access to that and those that do are also likely to travel abroad and be exposed to all that information anyway...

Not always. Different ISP's block different things and work/home connections also have different rules.

Once I came home to find they blocked the port to SSH & VPN. After 1 month of fighting with the IT management in the local building they opened it again.

Yep! The Great Firewall is only the outermost layer of blocking inside China. The ISP blocks plenty: only last week they suspended my account for a few days, probably as a "threat". It seems officials develop connections with the ISP's to collect surfing histories of customers these officials have an interest in. There's no concept of "providing an internet service to customers" in the minds of the ISP managers. If you use a Chinese ISP for any sort of web-hosting, be aware it may be vandalized by anyone willing to pay 100 rmb (i.e. 15 US dollars).

Run your OpenSSH server on port 80 or 443.

I think VPNs are there to stay. They do not defeat the purpose of the firewall.

Well, since you've been in China less than a year and you're finding out that it hampers your ability to run a business, why not state loud & clear to the government they'll be losing your business and move out?

It's not like you don't have options, as opposed to the majority of the Chinese population, for who moving out is not an option.

Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, but I think moving out first, then getting all uppity with gov't is probably a saner route.

He's posted below that his business is not registered, so there is nothing to get uppity about.

Also, after moving out there is not much to gain from the situation any more so any time you invest in to getting 'uppity' is wasted.

On another note, I wonder how much of the paranoia is really warranted and how much of it is based on media hype, I have two friends working in China and they're managing to get along with government officials well enough, so far, even when they're critical.

Does anybody from China have any experience with 'getting uppity' with Chinese officials as a foreigner doing business in China? As in "Hi, I need this to do my work, can you provide it or will I have to leave?" (which doesn't sound all that uppity to me anyway).

edit: by the way, funny the moderation in this thread is making me wonder how many people on HN have an irrational fear about all things Chinese. They can't all be moderating out of personal experience.

You don't get "uppity" with Chinese officials. You either have a good connection to the government or you can do squat. Government ties is everything if you really want to get your business going.

The real problem is the international companies providing all this nifty IT tech to actually realize this 1984 path what is going on in China.

I've worked inside various China government departments. In many respects, they have less data on China citizens than the U.S. government has access to on U.S. citizens.

If China is on a "1984 path", all I can tell you is the U.S. and UK are ahead of them at the moment in terms of data collection.

As to needing to be an insider to get your business going. This is only true for certain types of business. For those types, as a foreigner, you'd do well to stay out of it anyway, without regard to how connected you are.

China still takes the lead in censorship.

Yes, they're a real pain. I don't think it is as much that they don't realize it, they just see it as a way to make money. Take Cisco for example: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/05/leaked-cisco-do/

All of the equipment is manufactured in China anyway... Why would they not sell to the Chinese government when the alternative is for the government to get the unbranded equipment that is manufactured when the factory is "offline". :P

Please name names.

Cisco, Nortel (now Avaya).

source: http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=4854

There may be others though.

Actually I came here because my wife missed home, and the business isn't official(that is, isn't registered which because I'm not Chinese takes a lot of time and money and could very well be flat out rejected, have a read of some posts at China Law Blog http://www.chinalawblog.com/ , they cover the details).

Basically this is something I've just gone ahead and started, will work my ass off to make work, and if it does, and is worth while then I'll go official.

Ok. how about your own very private VPN to a machine abroad somehwere ?

I'm willing to host it for free for you if you play nice just to get you out of the bind you're in.

Mail me if you're game.

Ok, mailed you back with access info, hope you got it!

Got it, thanks, working great.

One down, one billion to go? :)

My wife is Chinese as well. She manages our China company. We're registered as an IT company. Its not a WOFE, but a full Chinese entity with only Chinese shareholders, which has some benefits. I'm the General Manager of the company.

Good luck with your business. I do recommend getting a company in order as soon as you can afford it. For the most part, so long as you are not cheating the tax man, you can get away with operating without proper company structure for a while. Also, when you do setup a company...shop around different districts for tax deals. Some districts in Shanghai, for example, may give you a lower tax rate to encourage your type of business. IT is usually a preferred business type.

Tax breaks here can be meaningless. One city gave a tax break on profits for the first (I think) three years in new businesses set up by foreigners. Hey, any business that can make money within 3 years is already being done by locals.

I also run a web company in Beijing, and feel your pain. Quite simply things like google groups which help in work, and access to coding/design blogs and material/advice. It's a fucking nightmare and pisses me off to no end.

I wake up, and click through HN feeds and 30% of them don't work. Even with a proxy you have to connect which might mess with your other settings, refresh, links come in slow. Then you need to disconnect since most VPN's tunnel ALL traffic via their servers. You are also logged off MSN so any conversations go missing.

China is like IE6. Only worse.

As I write this I too am having to go through a VPN to access the world. Even when it works properly, I constantly have to "play the VPN game."

I really don't have the time to list out every item from jhancock that I disagree with, but pretty much all of them made me grimace. And I find it poignant that he no longer lives here. I too live in Shanghai and have for the past 5 years. I came here looking for another view on life and to see what all the media fuss was about.

Don't get me wrong, I love the food, the excitement of living in a foreign country, have a wonderful chinese wife and in-laws and now take the good with the bad. But I now see why the US is #1 in many areas and continues to bring positivity to the world, for the most part.

I fully understand why millions of people attempt to immigrate to the US every year. Clean water, clean air, freedom to buy property, move where you like and a legal system that can be counted on. Nothing is perfect and there are exceptions, but China is a land with no law and it really never was. What the emperor wanted, he got. Contracts mean nothing, police cannot be counted on for much, other than brokering bribes between parties on the street and judges feel if you are in front of them, you did something wrong, regardless of the situation.

I have run my own business as well, legally, and have seen actions on part of my partners and customers that have blown my mind. The scams and lies now make me smile and I take them as lessons on what a person can do. It is the wild west over here.

As for the internet service, forget about it. Without SLAs, your provider is obligated to give you nothing. Either pay or they turn off your service. My home service is 150RMB/ month, my office, 2500RMB/ month because I am in an office building and they think we can afford more. My home service works above and beyond my best day in the office.

IP also means nothing, so the West continues to get raped over anything that might bring a profit from SW to design to web 2.0 opportunities. It's about block and copy and we are letting them step all over the WTO guidelines. Cisco? MS? Those sell-outs? They built the great firewall! I can tell you, they have not made more money than they have invested, but they will never admit it. Everyones' hope to finally make a buck someday in the future over here. The dream of any foreign company.....that never comes. Ask Grumman. Ask Pepsi. Ask GM with their 49/50 joint venture.

The air smells, the water putrid and cars drive on the sidewalk. Oh, and what is a red light? A color. And this is in their greatest international city. The rest of the country dives into the 18th century. I have been from top to bottom.

US creativity and ingenuity in technologies, film, music , popular trends, fashion, social improvements were all built on a legal system that has lasted over 200 years and continues to roll with the punches. China? The CCP just hit 60 and they still don't know what to call themselves. Communist? Socialist? Quasi-capitalist? A little copy of all of them. That's confusion, not progress.

Mark my words, we will be dealing with the worst kind of monster, an enabled one. I am talking about the CCP, not the Chinese people themselves. Know the difference. Blocking the internet is nothing, remember Tienanmen? They killed their own students and that says it all. Those leaders are still in power and are about to "elect" their children in 2012.

Well, I guess I did cover most of his comments. ha! And by the way, this summer, I will be finally coming home for good and will kiss the ground of a National Park when I do.

People can enjoy clean water and clean air in the US because all the crap we consume is outsourced to China.

Good point. However, if it wasn't, I doubt it would be the same in the US for two reasons. The first reason is that it isn't just the US outsourcing to China, ie. China gets everyone's crap. But the second and maybe more important reason, is that the US and most western countries, I assume, have stricter laws that China about pollution and waste disposal.

I agree with your focus on the legal system. It is indeed shit in China. But when it comes to the solution, I'm not sure I can propose a better path than that already followed by China. That is, a progressive economic reform, a very limited artistic liberation and essentially no political reform. By appearance to westerners, this looks horrible, but then again, look at eastern european countries that did follow a typical western/IMF approach and where they are at today. We have seen quick political reforms and financial deregulations and all the other washington consensus sell points that the west imposed on developing countries and where they lead to.

Back to China, even during the warring states periods, 2 and a half millenia ago, chinese statesmen acknowledged that only through economic ascension can citizens start giving a shit about morals and rights and having been over half of China's provinces, I believe that what the students tried to achieve on Tien'anmen will never work in China's present state. (it's idealistic democracy didn't even work among students on Tien'anmen square that changed hands through essentially mob wars about 3 times a day). The best path to better political and social states for the Chinese is exactly what China is doing right now, that is improving the economic condition for as many as possible.

No, I'm not saying that some's political rights should be sacrificed for a long term gain or that the lesser of 2 evils is good, but I just can't envisage a better way to improve China than what China is doing now. China does have a lot of problems and like it or not, it will not be solved overnight and overthrowing the CCP is definitely not going to improve the lives of ordinary citizens.

Your finding that I am not in Shanghai at the moment says nothing poignant. My family came back to the U.S. for a bit for family reasons: my grandmother is 99 and I wanted to spend time with her. My mother is getting a bit old and I wanted my son to spend time with her while he's still a young boy. There are certainly things about China that I personally am thankful for a break. Air and noise pollution mostly, and having more personal space. How is air and noise pollution and personal space a product of bad or corrupt governance and not simply due to the size of China's population and economic growth? The China gov has sponsored more new nuclear reactor projects than any country in the world to try to catch up with its energy needs. Its way behind and coal burning is going to keep increasing which is a tragedy. But they are ahead of the U.S. in being proactive. How are these side effects of their unprecedented growth the fault of some "evil empire"? I've worked inside the China government. There are good people and bad people, just like the U.S. I no longer work with China government and mostly not with local Chinese business because I find the process incompatible with my personality. My wife handles the process with no stress. So I do the IT work and deal with western business partners and she deals with the local stuff. Its important to understand that its "you" that gets upset about these things, not the majority of the local Chinese. I've snapped several times in my years there. I've hit critical levels of "I can't take this anymore!!!". But when I calm down and look around, I notice that its just me...the locals aren't bothered by it or at least not enough to try to change.

You've failed to make a case that its the CCP that is causing the problems that you describe. Well, with the exception of intellectual property issues. But the people of China are quite supportive of not paying a tariff to western countries for intellectual property. Can you make a moral or human rights case for why that position is wrong?. I'm not defending the CCP or their internet policies. But I can tell you that the vast majority of problems I've had doing business in China were due to the business people behaving badly. The government doesn't sponsor this behavior.

As to China not knowing what to call themselves...why should any country call themselves by a name that describes an economic tool? Why can't a country and its people use all available tools and change the system as their needs change? Your feelings about wanting to kiss the ground of a U.S. National Park points to your support of a government owning land and protecting and providing it to all citizens. U.S. National Parks are certainly not a product of capitalism. Dare I call it by its rightful name?

I highly recommend Americans read the book "In the Pond" http://www.amazon.com/Pond-Ha-Jin/dp/0375709118 The book speaks to many aspects of Chinese culture. The part that an American may find the most difficult to accept is how the protagonist, Shao Bin, keeps pushing for change and justice and keeps getting his ass handed to him. All the while, no one supports him, he's not a hero. His wife is angry at him for bringing trouble into their home. This is very hard for an American to accept. I will most likely never feel the way a Chinese person feels as to the boundaries of "what you can change and at what cost". But I have come to accept that I don't feel it and to reject my response that my feelings on what I can and should change in China are due to my having a more clear moral standing.

Political analysis is often hard because you can't control all of the variables. However we can look at very similar groups under different modes of governance.

Hong Kong. British-derived institutions and law. 12th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 1st on the Index of Economic Freedom. Outranking the USA in both.

Taiwan. Democracy. 37th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 27th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

China. CCP rule by many names. 79th on the Corruption Perceptions Index. 140th on the Index of Economic Freedom.

Regarding your experiences of the people not caring, perhaps the locals know what happens when they disagree and have become passive (as well as knowing that there are career damaging aspects beyond outright oppression)? You know they did fight a civil war over many of these issues and the rebels went to Taiwan? Public debate gets very heated in Taiwan on many issues. There are still protests in Hong Kong on the anniversary of Tienanmen Square massacre.

There are many countries throughout Asia that use an "Asian values" cultural argument to deflect criticism from the West. I would just say that where people migrate to when given the opportunity is highly suggestive.

N.B. The IEF draws from the CPI for part of its ranking, but includes a lot more than that.

Nice point. I made a comment about economics on the same thread, that Chinese statesmen 2500 years ago recognized that first economic improvements have to take place before moral enlightenment and the protection of individual rights. Mainland did do worse than these other equally Confucian societies, but I'd argue on where mainland did wrong and the solution. And I'm hesitant to say that these political reasons are the cause rather than the effects of bad economic performance of mainland. The mao period is undeniably a period of complete tragedy. But as much as a political tragedy, it is also an economic failure. So when it comes to the solution, I would again argue that political reforms at this stage in China will not bring benefits much less overthrowing the CCP. Gradual economic improvements is the best way to improve the political and social conditions of the Chinese masses

Those ranking systems may be better than nothing. But they are not an excuse to look down on another nation. They also do not account for the effects their system has on other systems.

I am not going to entertain a HK/Taiwan vs mainland history debate with you. The past is the past.

My posts here do not claim that China doesn't have plenty of problems to solve. Would it be too terrible to lend a hand in making it better instead of hurling insults and demanding today's leaders of China to apologize for mistakes of yesterday's?

America is better off currently mostly because it is newer. As time goes on the US will become more and more like China: more corruption, more pollution, less human rights.

I really don't think so. America can be "new", but Europe is much more old.

We are certainly having some problems on these topics, but we are far from being corrupted, polluted and without human rights. Especially in the northern european country, that are a big example of legality, human and civil rights and environmentally directed mindset.

I think that it's not a matter of how old a country is. To cite another example I know well, Italy is far worse than Europe, despite being first world, because, as a country, is really young (150 years compared to centuries for all other european countries).

The current US government is older than the current Chinese government. Major pollution became a problem during the industrial revolution, which started in Europe and North America. And when did the Chinese people have any more human rights (not just better conditions, but a right to those conditions) than they have now?

3 options :

1 - Playball 2 - Dodgeball 3 - Run ...

I've said this in other China related threads but I think China will just end up black-holing themselves.

And risk a huge hit to their economy?

There are so many things that will require us dollars, euros, whatever over credit cards for your business anyway, so get a card that can do currency exchange anyway?

You simply need someone to give you SSH access to a server outside China. Setup a SOCKS proxy through SSH and you can get anywhere you want.

Using some SaaS from inside China can be a problem (even with your SSH tunnel) due to latency and bandwidth. Find other tools. Folks have been building Internet companies for quite some time without needing cool JavaScript SaaS collaborative cloud thingies.

Already done. I gave him an account on one of my machines, it's up and running.

I don't know that it damages their startups. If anything, they make me-too products that mimic those here for their own domestic market.

There seems to be a great market DPI and other "security" focused technologies. You can always sell such products to Governments.

That being said, I find it hard to believe that the internet can be censored and regulated. It just takes too much time and effort to be worth it. Whatever the technology used, there will always be workarounds. There is no such thing as foolproof technology.

More and more its seems like a big con. The Government wanted it and some smart guy told them it can be done. He must be making a lot of money now.

The ruling class of the PRC is currently willing to keep power by any means necessary.

I'm hesitant to bet against a ruling class while it still maintains its own Gulag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai) and gets 65% of the country's organs for transplant from those it executes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%...).

Yes, someday it will likely all come tumbling down, although I think that history shows that tends to happen when the ruling class loses the will to engage in such extremes. Or if its own history is any guide it might split apart again.

But in the meanwhile they clearly think its worth the time and effort. And little mammals like us startup types need to be careful to avoid getting trampled underfoot.

Why does it have to come tumbling down? Can't you see a way forward where things improve without violence? There isn't one ruling class. I've seen government power change several times in Shanghai and at the national level over 10 years. You sound very pessimistic. What are doing to make the world a better place?

Here are a few suggestions:

* If you are a Chinese national, go home and become a member of the party, vote, and get involved in making your country better.

* If you have a method to fix one of the many problem in China (pollution, energy, etc.) you should go show it to the person in the Chinese gov that handles such policy. If you've got a great solution, I can get you touch with people that will listen.

It doesn't have to happen with (a lot of) violence. The final denouncement of the Soviet Union was fantastically non-violent compared to what just about everyone expected.

But authoritarian regimes like the PRC's aren't very stable, they have legitimacy problems, succession problems, sooner or latter they tend to "tumble down".

The very fact that the ruling class is spending so much effort keeping a lid on things by continuing to build the Great Firewall of China (with all its collateral damage as we're discussing here), preventing any alternative forms of civil society from getting big (organized religion, Falun Gong ... are there even Chamber's of Commerce that are independent of the government???) tells us important things.

And then there are the looming demographic issues. The One-Child Policy is leading to a nasty 4-2-1 generational aging---4 grandparents have 2 parents who have 1 child ... to support all the parents---and a nasty male to female ratio imbalance. Who's going to support those parents in their old age? Who are those unmatched 10s of millions of men going to marry? What happens if one or neither of those problems get solved?

Energy doesn't seem to be a big problem for the PRC (is the Earth about to run out of coal, uranium, etc.?). Pollution ... well, wealth and the rule of law are what solved it in the developed nations. We'll see how the wealth game continues in the PRC, but I don't see any possibility of a sudden outbreak of the rule of law.

There is nothing such as foolproof technology - that's why a large part of the firewall is powered by people. It helps develop computer skills in a large part of the population that would otherwise be out of work, and you reach your censorship targets at the same time. I think tens of thousands of young people (if not more) are employed as "firewall monitors" in China.

Who monitors the monitors?

It will always be an unending battle between hackers and the 'filterers'.

Actually, I wonder if there's another motive behind the filtering. I reckon by blocking access to certain foreign sites, it is actually giving opportunities to the locals to come up with their own home-brewed version of the service. The government is helping you kill off foreign competition.

Maybe it should be a case of "when there's a big problem, there's a big opportunity."

Move to Hong Kong?

The inet connection into mainland from that route is very slow.

The standard of living is much, MUCH better in China than in Hong Kong. HK is stressful.

+10 points for HN I don't agree with a lot of points of view here but I'm so glad it's happening here on HN rather than on Digg or something. Almost everyone who expresses their political views have been in China or does business in China rather than just repeating what fox news said.

I have gained new respects for HN

dublinclontarf, I live in and run a business in China. I solve my problems with a VPN. I find the GFW an annoyance, but not a huge one. It mostly just means my connection is slower when I access certain sites. Do you live in Beijing? I'd be happy to meet up with you if you're in the area.

S(Gl)adly I don't live in Beijing, but Nanchang, it's a developing city in the south, Jiangxi province. Nothing like a startup hub here but the cost of living is far below that of Beijing.

I live in Beijing, post away

You mean: "Jingapore"

How much does a US-based VPN service cost? What would be a reasonable price?

If any China-based hackers are interested, I'd consider setting one up for a price on the short side of fair.

If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the "China" topic can bring an emotionally heated debate and it's great to have the platform to discuss such issues. Thanks to pg for that! Forums such as these are not as common in the rest of the world as one could naively believe. But to bring this back to dublinclontarf 's original comment, I will write my last words on the subject.

As we are becoming more and more dependent on this thing called the internet, we must begin to create and offer the same types of securities, rights of access, usage and opportunities to the world, equally. Under the guidelines of free trade, like the WTO, we should have these already in place in some areas As online businesses are businesses, none the less, they should be given their due protection.

By restricting internet businesses from others and controlling what can and cannot be said on them is wrong. As China grows to become more powerful and has more ability to control their internet, I can only see a darker future for the state of freedom in China.

What we see now, are only examples of the type of governing and leadership in the CCP today. Human rights, free speech, social stability and environmental well-being all grow from the same tree. That tree looks to be quite unhealthy.

Bottom line, you do not have the freedom to discuss what you like on the internet in China. Period. Do so and you risk anything from losing a business license or police harassment to imprisonment or worse, in extreme cases. You do not have complete access to the online businesses being created daily across the globe. These are facts.

These freedoms that we take for granted in the US (I am an American) come from a basis of law and order. As I said before it is not perfect. Nothing humans create is. But from that law, we have much prosperity. the clean air comes from regulations and restrictions on wanton over-development, national parks have come from the common man fighting big business to protect something pure. By the way, even our president had to use his constitutional power to save one of the world's most precious gifts, the Grand Canyon, from the might of big business. And millions of immigrants have found a home to raise their families and prosper in their own unique ways.

Governments that oppress these freedoms and deny those rights have never fully grown to become world powers and beacons of hope. They made money and won some wars, but were never considered safe havens.

The problems associated with Internet and Freedom in China are merely symptoms of larger issues looming on the horizon. As we build this world wide web ever larger and stronger, we will see just how those two ideas are so intertwined.

For 20USD/mo you can setup a VPS and create your own vpn service using openswan. Is 20USD/mo too much?

From the original posting:

"[...] even if I had the cash I don't have a credit card that can make payments in $US to buy VPN access"

And avoiding a paper trail is wise if things eventually get ugly.

By the way the, VPNs of choice for China are Skydur and Freedur. Cheap and reliable.

i've got a proxy or two you can use in the states, email me.

dude i'm in china too.. Freegate for the win

move to Taiwan?

Moving to taiwan/hk/macau and taking cheap flights to the mainland could be a good alternative.

I think it's your fault for choosing to move to China then starting a web business that needs US access. It was very well known what China was like with respect to the web before you did this. It's a bit like moving to the North Pole to start a beach resort then complaining about how cold it is, all the snow, etc.

In fact China gradually liberalized the internet in the months and years leading up to the Aug 2008 Olympics, and there was virtually no blocking from Aug 2008 to March 2009. Many foreigners here thought the Chinese had seen some sense. But then the restrictions started piling on. The ones I noticed: Youtube in March 2009, Blogspot in May 2009, Google Groups around Nov 2009.

The common theme about doing business in China is that China is very adept at making sure that money invested into China never, ever leaves the great financial wall of China.

But be prepared to die under the treads of a tank.

Nah, they'll stop the tank and show their mercy to the international public, while an onslaught of protesting students is going on outside the view of the camera. Then you'll get taken away by a man on a bicycle and never heard from again.

The Tiananmen Square protests were in 1989, well before the rise of widespread internet usage, I wonder if given the speed with which information moves around these days if the government of China would risk a second confrontation in the public eye like that.

While the OP states clearly that the government is doing a lot to crack down on communication with foreign entities I can't help but think that communication inside China is still on average a lot faster today than it was in 1989.

Are mesh networks illegal in China?

I think you're correct, but China still tries its best to crack down on this. Remember the iPhone is sold in China without wifi. Probably to cut down on this exactly.

Please clarify, it's the government, not all Chinese people, who can be as friendly and kindly as every faithful human on the earth.

The government is made up of people. After living in China for a while, you soon find some Chinese people are friendly to your face, but are monitoring your emails thru your ISP, or tracking your movements around the city, or arranging for a breakin at your apartment. And these are young Chinese, just doing what their seniors showed them. Young Chinese don't have the concept in their minds that internet blocking harms innovation, and will do the same in government when they replace their elders.