People say you should experience everything when you are young. I would argue that those same people need to keep their mouths shut. Drugs, especially anything related to meth is not what you want to have as an experience in life.
It's a bleak path to follow and unless a divine miracle happens to you, getting out is going to be very hard. In fact, many of my friends kept grinding it long after I had quit and changed up my life entirely.
For reference; I was addicted on a weekend-basis that sometimes turned into 3-4 day parties. This went on for 3 years at most maybe.
I do agree that 'experiencing everything' is bad advice.
That said, I think arguing abstinence with something as vague and broad as 'drugs' can and often does backfire in the same way it does with something as vague and broad as 'sex'.
I've known more than a few people who, having been taught to abstain from both (the former in general, the latter until marriage), ended up engaging with both in an extremely irresponsible way and with unpleasant consequences.
Learning how to responsibly engage in different kinds of 'sexual activity' makes it easier, not harder, to prevent something like unwanted pregnancy. I'd say it's the same with drugs.
That said, I can understand where you're coming from and it's also good for people to hear stern warnings at times. Even in my surroundings, where 'drugs' are pretty normalized, their status is still enough in the area of prohibition that erring on the side of not partaking might be the better approach.
My parents told me to try what I wanted but to do it in a controlled environment and after reading or talking about it with people who already did it. That made me try things some things (mostly once because I did not like it), but never heroine or meth for instance because I read up on it and talked with addicts (who at that time lived on the streets but since have disappeared?) and they told me that it is like 1000 orgasms but after that like living hell. The latter scared me enough to never try. This is over 25 years ago and the only thing I would do again are shrooms (which are legal here).
I took amphetamines for a decade. Adderall. Just legalize, give people a clean and pure supply. Then the only side effects are due to the drug not all the issues around it like the low quality chemical ridden bullshit street quality bathtub stuff.
I would argue it's more dangerous to pretend they are so different. It leads many prescription users to believe what they are taking is a safe and harmless concentration aid, while the media paints meth users as monsters under the spell of a scourge on society. In reality, the drugs are not so different. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, regular users showed similar effects and very little preference [0]. Specifically
> methamphetamine and d-amphetamine produced similar effects on the majority of physiological and behavioral measures. Both drugs enhanced ratings of euphoria and mood, increased cardiovascular activity, and improved psychomotor performance. Methamphetamine did, however, engender greater effects on some measures (e.g., heart rate and ratings of ‘high’).
and
> methamphetamine and d-amphetamine (50 mg/70 kg) similarly increased drug self-administration; regardless of amphetamine, participants chose approximately 47–50% drug. This is consistent with results from the preclinical literature indicating that rats and rhesus monkeys self-administer both amphetamines at equivalent rates
Furthermore, your science is not quite correct. Amphetamines are a synthetic derivative of phenylethylamine (found in chocolate, cheese, and wine) that adds a methyl group, which allows it to persist in the bloodstream and therefore cross the blood-brain barrier. Methamphetamine adds another methyl group [1][2], which allows it to survive in the blood longer, cross the BBB more easily, and also makes it significantly more neurotoxic [3] because it even harder for the body to break down. Are there differences? Yes. Are they significant? As someone that has experimented with both substances, I found them far more similar than the media would have you believe.
> I found them far more similar than the media would have you believe.
For what I know, methamphetamine causes negative long term effects whereas regular misc amphetamines (generic adderall) don’t if you aren’t overdosing or abusing it.
They are dangerous drugs with serious side effects like cardiac damage. There’s a book called Blitzed that talks about the mass abuse of amphetamines in WW2 Germany.
The argument is not that the drugs have no side effects or that there are not serious side effects. It is that black market drugs come with all of those side effects plus many more negative effects due to the lack of quality control and unreliable supply chains.
It was called Pervitin, and found in every soldiers lunch box. Everyone could buy it in his local pharmacy. The germans even won their first soccer world cup on it. Bad stuff.
Most drugs can have serious side effects. Alcohol, caffeine etc. Paul Erdos liked his amphetamines too. I can't exactly argue that we're worse off for it as a society.
It's sub-optimal to compare an adderal prescription to street meth -- they're taken for entirely different reasons and they have entirely different effects.
Common sense needs to be applied, you need to know what you're taking, what its safety and addiction profiles are, etc etc.
I had some amazing times with MDMA, with LSD, with mushrooms, amphetamine, 2-C drugs, tryptamines and all sorts of other interesting things, wonderful experiences that created and deepened personal bonds, euphoric states I'd never have known otherwise. Yes there were one or two bad times, it's not 100% rosy.
I never got addicted, and getting 'out' was trivial, and I don't believe my experience is unique or even that unusual.
Meth, I never tried because I knew the risks. I really don't find talking about 'drugs' all that useful
I really respect your honesty. Many of us are not brave enough to share these kinds of serious life mistakes.
Additionally, this is especially important when people formerly advocated something they later realize is wrong. In these cases I believe they have an obligation to correct the record.
My experience was different, and I disagree with the statement that trying things is always bad.
I tried coke, heroin and meth once each. Coke was a huge let down, and I've had no interest in trying that again. Meth, on the other hand -was eye-opening. I knew from my experience that if I did it again, I would end up overdosing on it very quickly -so I never did.
I'm far from a health nut or religious freak. I drank like a fish for decades, did pot, did LSD. Booze was hard enough (pot and LSD both reached a point where they were no longer fun, so I no longer did them) to quit, I'm glad that was the only thing that stuck.
So yeah ...I'm glad -and lucky, that I had the experiences with the hard stuff that I had. When meth got common it held zero temptation for me, ditto for coke and heroin.
It helps that I have always been poor as dirt and knew that I wouldn't be able to have regular access to any of that, either.
You're also smart and disciplined, key ingredients that most drug addicts are missing. Meth is absolutely terrible, no arguments there, but what ever happened to personal liberty ? I don't need the government telling me what to do...
The problem is that you don't know if you're going to find the thing you want to die with until you try it, and then it's too late. Some people really should never try street drugs. Unfortunately there's not a good way to know besides trying them.
I said divine miracle in my initial reply for a reason. I experienced what is known as OBE or Out of Body Experience while laying down on the floor, high off of my senses. I never did any drugs after this apart from a smoking habit I had to break. So, to summarise, that was 3 years worth of addiction resolved in one evening. Over the years I have understood the experience more, but not something I want to share at this time as I would like to include that in my book.
They mentioned religion but when describing the experience they called it "OBE or Out of Body Experience", which my friends use interchangeably with "hallucination". Drugs that are less harmful can cause hallucinations (even weed), and I know meth can lead to sleep deprivation which can cause even more hallucinations. I do realize that for some people drugs are a religious experience (e.g. I have a friend who claims she sees and speaks with Jesus every time she gets really high, and she believes it's real and not a hallucination). But "Out of Body Experience" seems to me like it doesn't have a religious connotation, and I didn't see any further details about the OBE like "and then God said ____". If you still feel I was being condescending, consider that Wikipedia agrees that both of our interpretations of "OBE" are valid:
But it seems your interpretation (that OBE == religious experience) was actually what they meant and my interpretation was not, based on this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19588813
I think not challenging a notion because it may be religious in nature is the actual condescending stance. Why is asking questions about a religious experience different from asking about any other? Can they not handle an iota of push back?
While it seems we agree about religion, I disagree about questioning this person's religion. This person is talking about writing a book about their experience which they believe to be a divine intervention that changed their life and got them off of meth. Clearly, this is a very big deal to them and something that matters to them a whole lot, and they believe the story is so good that they won't even post the details of the divine intervention on HN because they want to save it for their book.
Pushing them on this topic is mean because it's such a big deal to them, and it's counterproductive because you'll never be able to prove it to them. Even if you say something like "go through some sleep deprivation and see if you hallucinate" and then they do, you won't have proven that their previous experience was a hallucination. Instead, all you'll be doing is telling them that things they hold very deeply are all stupid, and never changing their mind. There is no positive effect from this, it's all just negative.
Eh, it's a case by case basis. I'm currently prescribed d-amp, I've put a whole bunch of scary opioids through my body for fun, and have used pretty much everything else under the sun more than a few times. I'm also pretty cognizant of "addiction logic" -- Especially when I'm doing something bad, rationalizing it, feeling worthless, and recognizing my own bullshit all simultaneously. In terms of "addictions" aka "inappropriately falling in love", this a log scale ranking of how much unhappiness they've caused from high to low:
- Internet news / information, including this website has a worse effect on my life than anything else. I can't get anything done right now, but if I were on dope I would still be doing something productive simultaneously. My internet usage can get to the point of refreshing the same 10 webpages for an hour, etc. No acutely deadly potential, but it happens literally all day.
- Video games. More so when I was younger. You can imagine.
- "Working" -- Has led to loss of friends, relationships, health, personal growth and making money!! Just like sex, this is not about all work but about inappropriate patterns of work.
- Certain types of sex and romance, e.g. the type where one doesn't want to see the person again or ever be seen with them in public. Mostly just lost sleep and self-worth, but very often.
- Stimulants -- Sleeping, relaxing, and zoning out are really nice, much nicer than being on speed all the time. But they enable the "working addiction" to a much unhealthier degree than it could get by itself. My "I must bang out a project over consecutive 100-hour days until it's complete to my standards" is the equivalent of your "parties that turned into a week", kind of. Less bad than low quality sex because it's less frequent. Changes in my work habits could make it worse, though.
- Heroin et al -- Pooping, eating, sleeping, having sex are really nice. Being on dope all the time, or even a lot of the time, isn't nearly as nice. On the other hand it has been very attractive to me in times of romantic upheaval due to the no sex drive thing, but it's more "luxuriating in depression" and sex eventually regains its old place in the desire hierarchy.
- Other drugs -- Not really on the list. Sometimes I will use them but it is always kind of a chore.
Having some experience with "addiction to hard drugs" is nice because it provides a model system for the less clear-cut types of addiction. However, there seems to be an inflection point at which the pros of a balanced life no longer outweigh the cons of an addicted life and it can be tricky to learn how to navigate around that point. Most people I know who love drugs in moderation have always been doing pretty well for themselves in a material sense, anyway.
Finally, to fill out the list, here are a few other addictions that have totally wrecked the lives of people I know, but which pose no danger to "normal people".
- Gambling
- Exercising
- "Controlling" one's own diet and physical appearence
> People say you should experience everything when you are young. I would argue that those same people need to keep their mouths shut.
The biggest problem I have with those promulgating experiences with these kinds of "high"/"low" drugs is that nobody can answer: "If it is every bit as awesome as you say it is, how does that improve my life?"
I know more than few people who say: "Yeah, cocaine really is that awesome. I can't even hope to stop myself, so I simply cannot be around it."
For those with a reason (like extreme physical pain), sure. But, to my mind, for normal people, there seems to be no upside to even trying a drug with that mechanism.
Do you feel meth was something that someone said you “should try”, or was it something you chose to do?
Do you think anything anyone had said to you might have prevented you trying it? I’d like to know the words that might stop kids even giving a try once.
Here’s the thing about meth and most other recreational drugs. The fun part is immediate. The bad part is subtle and can take years to be a problem if it ever does.
If you lie to kids about what drugs are like, they’ll never believe anything you say about them.
The reality is that drugs a lot of fun and can improve your life in the short term. People wouldn’t use them if they didn’t. It’s not like you use meth and start looking for black helicopters out your window and you’re horribly dependent. You’re likely to have a great weekend listening to music with cool people and staying up all night talking and then you feel fine in the morning.
Drug dealers are not dangerous criminals and people that use drugs can be really fun to hang out with.
The thing is that gradually it gets less and less fun and most people just quit on their own. It’s only a small percentage that get hooked on any of these drugs (other than opiates) and most of them have extensive psychological and personal problems. Most people with happy childhoods and stable relationships don’t become junkies. Almost everybody I knew in the rave scene who became out of control addicts had histories of abuse and neglect from alcoholic or addict parents.
What it comes down to is this: don’t be an addict, model good behavior, love your kids, be honest with them, pay attention to them, don’t traumatize them with abuse, and it’s very unlikely they’re going to become addicts, even if they fall in with ‘the wrong crowd’.
Almost everybody I knew in the rave scene who became out of control addicts had histories of abuse and neglect from alcoholic or addict parents.
It is concerning that these people have easy access to substances that cause further difficulties. I'd argue that these people are self medicating in a way that turns out to be a net negative.
I'm not entirely convinced I understand what should be done about any particular circumstance where someone(s) from an abusive background find themselves surrounded by meth users and then become a user themselves.
I think investing money in social services and education and early intervention for kids who are the victims of neglect and trauma and maybe treating addiction like the medical problem it is instead of a criminal problem, so people can get treatment without social stigma.
I never used meth, but I did a lot of weed and adderall at one point which decreased my quality of life by a significant extent. I think my initial outlook on drugs was shaped by everyone telling me how terrible they are, with almost no explanation why (just drugs are bad mmkay). Eventually I tried weed and found that it made me feel amazing, relaxed, and deeply inspired. At that point it felt like I was lied to and that all drugs are perfectly fine as long as you do them responsibly. What I didn't realize is that doing them responsibly is unbelievably hard and it's really just borrowing happiness from the future. I think I might have avoided them altogether if someone had told me "never do drugs because you'll love them so much that nothing else will be nearly as good in comparison. The things you previously enjoyed will become utterly boring unless you're high". I think it was mostly the adderall that caused that. I'm a month into quitting it all cold turkey and I still feel bored with everything. I'm hoping I just need to wait longer to restore my neurotransmitters because otherwise I completely ruined my life.
> I’d like to know the words that might stop kids even giving a try once.
Just be honest about the risks of different drugs, rather than making a big deal out of drugs like cannabis or mdma that are not particularly harmful (and that there's a good chance they will know are not particularly harmful because all their friends are taking them).
Kids will listen to you because they respect your opinion, not because you say particular words. So make sure that your opinion is worthy of respect, and matches up with their experiences.
It was social pressure, and I was pretty much the last person to do it in my immediate circle of friends at that time.
Down the line what helped me the most was advice from grown ups that I had a lot of respect for. It just felt different when someone was saying you have to stop and those people didn't necessarily have a way to know other than to look at you.
and by reading up I mean get a basic understanding of neurochemistry, history of psychoactives and etheogens, how they devovled into vile substances like crack and meth and synth cannabinoids, bow thrice to Shulgin.
and then try.
at this point there would not be any unexpected detrimental effects.
I'm not sure even how this advice differs from a plain 'teach your kids to think' /
It's a bleak path to follow and unless a divine miracle happens to you, getting out is going to be very hard. In fact, many of my friends kept grinding it long after I had quit and changed up my life entirely.
For reference; I was addicted on a weekend-basis that sometimes turned into 3-4 day parties. This went on for 3 years at most maybe.